Going independent?

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nichirenista
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Re: Going independent?

Post by nichirenista »

Son of Buddha wrote:You don't have to give up Nichiren Buddhism to practice with other denominations, you could juggle them all till you make your mind up about where you want be and what practices/doctrine you feel like following.

Have you considered sticking around and motivating/organizing people in the temple to fix the problems in the temple?

Peace and love
Thank you for the positive feedback. I'd love to help. But I think the temple dynamic, at the moment, is beyond repair. I wouldn't know where to begin.... I mean, when you are afraid to speak to board members or people who attend services for fear they may yell at you, then that's probably a sign that it's just time to go! To be honest, I've wondered if the temple is on its last legs and will just fold eventually anyway.
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Re: Going independent?

Post by SeekerNo1000003 »

It seems to me (emphasis on "it seems to me" :)) that the problem in part could
be your difficulty in taking criticism. If the criticism is incorrect, then there is no need to worry. For example, if a mentally ill person criticizes you, then you should take what they say with a grain of salt for obvious reasons.
If the criticism rings true however, then it becomes a wonderful opportunity for investigation! Either way, you may wish to check if indeed there is something true in what they say. This is hard and painful, but I think it is one of the swift ways which may help in cultivating awareness, patience, humility etc. One cannot help but be grateful for such experiences when used properly.
I can share with an experience. When you are in graduate school, everyone criticizes you 24/7. And it's not a nice subtle criticism... NO. The professors go straight to the point, pearcing through your heart with words. They are not always correct! But if you cannot take the criticism calmly then you will not survive. So many people drop out...I wonder if the pressure is too much for them.
If you keep going and keep using any criticism to your advantage then eventually you will learn to enjoy it. This can be so helpful in dharma practice too. An unpleasant experience can be used as a dharma lesson. A person who criticizes can be viewed as a great dharma teacher.
:anjali:
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kirtu
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Re: Going independent?

Post by kirtu »

nichirenista wrote:
Seishin wrote:
I have faced similar situations and there is never an out-come that everyone is happy with. If the sangha is in discord then the sensei needs to stand up and take responsibility. The temple needs to be a place for sanctuary for people to practice but at the same time be open to everyone - never easy to balance.

Gassho,
Seishin
Yes, that's something I'm aware of. I have to make the distinction here. On one hand, the sensei has been helpful, kind, and compassionate to me, personally. But I do agree that it is the job of the sensei to take a stand and exercise more influence in the temple. At some level, if things are dysfunctional, the action or non-action of the sensei must be taken into account. To be honest, I get a sense that the language barrier is the main hurdle here. I'm not so sure the sensei understands everything that is going on -- because it is going on in a language the sensei is not fluent in, English.

....

In other words the sensei is a success with the liturgy, but perhaps not so successful in taking a stand and pulling together in a dysfunctional temple community. Thus my polarized experience at the temple.
Have you discussed your concerns with the sensei?

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

"Most all-knowing Mañjuśrī, ...
Please illuminate the radiant wisdom spirit
Of my precious Buddha nature."
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nichirenista
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Re: Going independent?

Post by nichirenista »

Apparently, you missed where I wrote that I'm a former Catholic. In other words, I'm aware that it goes on in places other than Tibetan Buddhism. I've never heard of it in the Nichiren tradition, and from what I've read you have to be around 16 to be a monk in Japan today.

Let's just say I'm aware child abuse happens everywhere, and I'm opposed to it where it happens.

JKhedrup wrote:
I wasn't at all surprised when it was revealed that a significant number of them would be sexually abused. One thing I appreciate about Nichiren Buddhism is that, to my knowledge, one isn't allowed to become a monk until one is something like 16-years-old. That may be the case throughout Japan.
This seems to reflect an incorrect assumption that such abuse is unique to Tibetan monasteries.. In fact, male monks abusing novices is also a problem in Japanese clerical circles- this is recorded throughout history and there were even "manuals" about how priests should engage in affairs with novices under their charge in Japan:
The youngest acolytes, called kasshiki could be as little as five years old and were not required to shave their hair like monks but wore it ‘shoulder length and modishly’[9]. They decorated their faces with powder and ‘dressed in finely wrought silken robes and vividly colored variegated under robes.’ Colcutt points out the problems caused by boy-love in Zen monasteries of the Muromachi period (1333-1568), commenting that ‘The presence of large numbers of children in the monastery could adversely affect standards of discipline.’
To what extent, then, did the ‘homoerotic’ atmosphere I have suggested existed in male monastic environments actually result in homosexual behaviour? Leupp[16] reads the very large number of references in literary and artistic sources which depict actual sexual relations between monks and acolytes as reflecting their widespread practice. As evidence, he cites a vow containing five resolutions, which was made in 1237 at the Todaiji temple in Nara by a 36-year-old monk:

Item: I will remain secluded at Kasaki Temple until reaching age forty-one.

Item: Having already frak ninety-five males, I will not behave wantonly with more than one hundred.

Item: I will not keep and cherish any boys except Ryuo-Maru.

Item: I will not keep older boys in my own bedroom.

Item: Among the older and middle boys, I will not keep and cherish any as their nenja [adult role in pederastic relationship].
http://www.westernbuddhistreview.com/vo ... ality.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"By the time of increased samurai ascendancy from the thirteenth century, there was already a well-established homoerotic tradition in Japanese monasteries in which boys, not women, were constructed as fitting objects for adult male desire, a tradition which was well suited to the masculine ideals of an increasingly militaristic society."(Jnanavira)
http://www.oocities.org/bjcjapan/roots.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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nichirenista
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Re: Going independent?

Post by nichirenista »

In case this was directed toward me with regard to my participation at the Nichiren temple I've been discussing in this thread:

I have been the recipient of no criticism at the temple.

If anything, it's been the opposite. I've gotten a sense of admiration that I kind of can't deal with. I've often had the experience of catching people staring at me while chanting the Hoben and Juryo chapters, stunned that I have them memorized.


SeekerNo1000003 wrote:It seems to me (emphasis on "it seems to me" :)) that the problem in part could
be your difficulty in taking criticism. If the criticism is incorrect, then there is no need to worry. For example, if a mentally ill person criticizes you, then you should take what they say with a grain of salt for obvious reasons.
If the criticism rings true however, then it becomes a wonderful opportunity for investigation! Either way, you may wish to check if indeed there is something true in what they say. This is hard and painful, but I think it is one of the swift ways which may help in cultivating awareness, patience, humility etc. One cannot help but be grateful for such experiences when used properly.
I can share with an experience. When you are in graduate school, everyone criticizes you 24/7. And it's not a nice subtle criticism... NO. The professors go straight to the point, pearcing through your heart with words. They are not always correct! But if you cannot take the criticism calmly then you will not survive. So many people drop out...I wonder if the pressure is too much for them.
If you keep going and keep using any criticism to your advantage then eventually you will learn to enjoy it. This can be so helpful in dharma practice too. An unpleasant experience can be used as a dharma lesson. A person who criticizes can be viewed as a great dharma teacher.
:anjali:
Last edited by Johnny Dangerous on Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: edited per poster
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nichirenista
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Re: Going independent?

Post by nichirenista »

kirtu wrote:
nichirenista wrote:
Seishin wrote:
I have faced similar situations and there is never an out-come that everyone is happy with. If the sangha is in discord then the sensei needs to stand up and take responsibility. The temple needs to be a place for sanctuary for people to practice but at the same time be open to everyone - never easy to balance.

Gassho,
Seishin
Yes, that's something I'm aware of. I have to make the distinction here. On one hand, the sensei has been helpful, kind, and compassionate to me, personally. But I do agree that it is the job of the sensei to take a stand and exercise more influence in the temple. At some level, if things are dysfunctional, the action or non-action of the sensei must be taken into account. To be honest, I get a sense that the language barrier is the main hurdle here. I'm not so sure the sensei understands everything that is going on -- because it is going on in a language the sensei is not fluent in, English.

....

In other words the sensei is a success with the liturgy, but perhaps not so successful in taking a stand and pulling together in a dysfunctional temple community. Thus my polarized experience at the temple.
Have you discussed your concerns with the sensei?

Kirt
I've tried to discuss my thoughts with the sensei, but the language barrier gets in the way. I also get a sense that, though the sensei is kind and compassionate, the sensei doesn't know what to do about the problems and may not be interested because the sensei will be gone in a year anyway.
markatex
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Re: Going independent?

Post by markatex »

The more you post about it, the more it seems like a really bad fit. I really would encourage you to reach out to one of the English-speaking priests if you're interested in staying with Nichiren Shu (it sounds like you are).
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nichirenista
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Re: Going independent?

Post by nichirenista »

Thank you for the support/input. You are correct that it is a really bad fit. But I want to emphasize the following: I've never confirmed nor denied that that I'm referring to a Nichiren Shu temple here. Okay? :shrug: LOL I could be referring to Nichiren Shoshu, Rissho, etc. :)
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Re: Going independent?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

I bow before the Dharma, Shakyamuni, Kannon sama, the celestial bodhisattvas not human beings...
Sakyamuni wasn't human?
... and I never will.
Fair enough. It's definitely not for everybody. Actually I am of the opinion that when one does so that there should be a clearer understanding of the fact you are not bowing before the personage per se, but the continued presence of blessings tracing back through the lineage. That's why in the Kagyu NgonDro the guru is visualized as Vajradhara, which is the enlightenment of Sakyamuni as seen through the lens of the Vajrayana. Or at least such is my opinion/understanding at the present moment.

But basically it's perfectly ok if you're not into it.
Last edited by Schrödinger’s Yidam on Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:25 am, edited 3 times in total.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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rory
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Re: Going independent?

Post by rory »

NIchirenista I enjoyed that thread a great deal. You shouldn't be embarrassed; you possessed a lot of wisdom to see the inherent problems. with TB back then. My choice in the 90's was either Pure Land or Nichiren as I liked chanting, it was an independent practice & their founders were safely dead. (had no idea of SGI/Shoshu mess...lol)

Here is a Nichiren Shu temple that broadcasts its service and Shodaigyo meditation: http://www.nichiren-shu.org/boston/pages/video.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
and here is Rev. Myokei Caine-Barret's services on ustream http://www.ustream.tv/channel/myoken-temple" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
and here's a sermon from HBS http://www.beikokuhbs.com/gallery.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; I know they are doing chats with Rev. Tamura, a very kind believing priest. I met him in NC, a lovely person

SMCJ: read the ch. 16 of the Lotus Sutra where Shakyamuni reveals he is the Eternal Buddha.
http://www.buddhistdoor.com/OldWeb/reso ... otus16.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
This is a nice article on a Tibetan monk and the radical nature of the Lotus Sutra by Prof. Jan Nattier
http://www.tricycle.com/special-section ... -awakening" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
And here are great articles by the Nichiren scholar (and practitioner) Jacqueline Stone of Princeton
https://www.princeton.edu/~jstone/lotus ... hiren.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
with gassho and support
Rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/
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Re: Going independent?

Post by Grigoris »

Thread locked pending clean up.
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Re: Going independent?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

After cleaning it up, i'm unlocking it with a couple of suggestions:

1) Even if/when you perceive someone else is acting inappropriately, that does not give a user carte blanche to violate ToS rules about denigration of other traditions.

2) I suggest It's probably best to go back to original point of the thread, which was Nichirenista's issues with possibly leaving his temple. This means that also, unless there is something relevant to say about that subject, the thread doesn't need to again degenerate into arguments about other traditions or similar. Keep on topic, exercise some judgement, and feel free to PM me if you have questions or complaints regarding the thread.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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nichirenista
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Re: Going independent?

Post by nichirenista »

Thank you. I agree that it would be best to return to the original topic of how to be an independent practitioner of Nichiren Buddhism.

That much being said, the commentary I made with regard to Tibetan vs. Nichiren Buddhism, and comparisons between the historical contexts of the Dalai Lama and Nichiren Daishonin and their respective roles in their respective societies, was not an attempt to denigrate any tradition nor was it retaliation against anyone. Those discussions grew naturally out of the original topic of this thread: how I am attempting to cope with a dysfunctional Nichiren temple (one option being the title of this thread: "Going Independent").

One way I was attempting to cope was by looking into other schools entirely. I then made reference to my childhood on the Catholic Church, and noted that due to certain circumstances I am sensitive to certain issues faced in certain schools of Buddhism. The discussion grew organically out of the original topic of this thread, and was never an attempt to denigrate any tradition.
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Re: Going independent?

Post by rory »

Thank you too Johnny Dangerously for re-opening the discussion;

I too have benefitted from this thread, as I signed up for the Rissho Kosei Kai online Buddhism course. I had no idea (the last time I knew them was in Ireland back in 2004) their outreach had improved so greatly. Kudos.
http://www.buddhistcenter-rkina.org/onl ... ourse.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I like their emphasis on applying Buddhism to everyday situations and am looking forward to it!
with gassho
Rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/
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Re: Going independent?

Post by Agnikan »

Do Nichiren practitioners repeat the Odaimoku/Daimoku in the manner of Hindu japa (continual recitation of the phrase throughout the day)?
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Re: Going independent?

Post by Myoho-Nameless »

Jetavan wrote:Do Nichiren practitioners repeat the Odaimoku/Daimoku in the manner of Hindu japa (continual recitation of the phrase throughout the day)?
I do not know anything about japa. but in general, Nichiren practitioners recite the daimoku morning an evening, so twice a day in front of the gohonzon. the general consensus is that one should do it at least 5 minutes at a time, but that is of no means authoritative. Though one can do it as often or as little as one wants, and we can do it just under our breath or just think it whenever we feel the need or want to. I do not personally do much chanting outside of daily practice in front of the gohonzon, though it does happen and I am thinking of making that more of a habit. I was waiting for someone in a car and went around the juzu beads 5 times a few days ago.

but we do not do it 24 7, if thats what japa implies.
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nichirenista
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Re: Going independent?

Post by nichirenista »

It's funny. It's only been a few days since I've decided that I'm not returning to the temple, and already I feel my practice improving, returning to what it was before I got to the temple.

What I mean is, most people at the temple are the Buddhist equivalent to "holiday Christians," only show up for the major holidays and don't take it that seriously. (I literally had someone say to me one day at the temple, in an amused tone, "You take this type of Buddhism really seriously, don't you?") It's a "cultural" activity for them. In an attempt to fit-in, I was trying to make myself that way. And that was killing my practice….

I don't know if I will ever understand how it could be that people could have something I'm very interested in (a traditional Nichiren Buddhist temple) and yet not be that interested. But I guess that's the variety of life….
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Re: Going independent?

Post by Myoho-Nameless »

I think this is interesting, and personally a tad uplifting, because there is in some more traditional and ethnic Buddhist circles and attitude of "if a white person says they are Buddhist, don't believe them". Referring I think to those "buddhists" trying to marry buddhism and materialist philosophy, (which existed in the Buddha's day called Carvaka I think, and the Buddha did not count himself one of them) or those westerners who just can't wrap their heads around certain cultural aspects of Buddhism that they take for granted, I personally cannot click with confucian values or even traditional buddhist values that do not directly relate to the practice of Buddhism. It is perhaps understandable when you imagine them looking at western converts and seeing them completely rejecting things that have been important to their culture or lineage for a long time (I was going over that Buddhist Relics thread that is now locked that you started), but clearly its not the case that Buddhism is "taken seriously" even in those circles that you think it would be. There are plastic Buddhists of all colors.
"Keep The Gods Out Of It. Swear On Your Heads. Which I Will Take If You Break Your Vow."- Geralt of Rivia
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nichirenista
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Re: Going independent?

Post by nichirenista »

Thank you. Yes, in a way, it was uplifting. As I mentioned above, I felt a sense of admiration from the (Japanese American) members who were born and raised in the temple. That's obviously a good thing. But it can make a person (namely, me) a bit self-conscious to be chanting in service, and turn around and have an entire row of people staring at you in disbelief (because I have the Hoben and Juryo chapters memorized).

Then there was the flip-side. Jealousy. I often got a sense that the sensei wasn't too comfortable with my knowledge of Buddhism, as though I was some hedonistic show-off. This led me to almost feel ashamed of my knowledge and interest in Nichiren Buddhism, which led me to attempt to dumb-myself-down. And nevermind the time the Japanese American lady across the table during social hour pointed at me and asked in front of the entire table, "But do you have Aspergers?" In other words, from her perspective, only a mentally ill layperson would have memorized the Hoben and Juryo chapters.

No, I don't have Aspergers. It's just that, unlike just about everyone else at this temple, I actually take the practice seriously, and I know that it's recommended to recite the chapters twice a day -- and, surprise surprise, after doing that for a while, viola! you have them memorized….

As cynical as this may sound, I think this is the simple truth about the temple. I believe it is a dwindling cultural club for Japanese-Americans (each service has less than 10 people attending), and a curio for offbeat white people. The novelty wears off with most white people after about two or three months, and the Japanese-Americans aren't that interested in the religious aspect but I just there for the socializing, as some of them grew up in the temple after all.
Last edited by nichirenista on Mon Jul 21, 2014 12:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Going independent?

Post by Myoho-Nameless »

Thats funny, because I DO have aspergers and as far as I know, it did not help me memorize the hoben or juryo at all, it took me a long while, and it was more the listening to it while walking around or just in spare time on an app that made it stick than the reading of it, at first it was scary and dull and I lacked enthusiasm for it. Aspies often have these narrow interests, sutra recitation would be a VERY narrow interest indeed.
"Keep The Gods Out Of It. Swear On Your Heads. Which I Will Take If You Break Your Vow."- Geralt of Rivia
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