On the Primacy of the Lotus

[Yuren]

Nirvana Sutra:

"... the very ultimate (uttarottara) of the meaning of all sutras is taught by this sutra. Not one single syllable or tittle has been taught that has previously been heard by any sravaka [follower of the Buddha] or pratyekabuddha [solitary, self-taught Buddha]. This sutra is supremely excellent (varottama). Therefore, this signifies that [this sutra] is a great uttara-tantra [culminational teaching] ... [this sutra is] the uttarottara [absolutely supreme] of all Mahayana discourses ..."

I realize that the Nirvana is categorized in the highest category together with the Lotus in Nichiren/Tendai classification.
The problem, however, is that it's not just the Nirvana Sutra that makes such claims about its own status. One can find many similar quotes in other Mahayana Sutras.

I looked up Nichiren's answer to this question and he says those claims are "relative". I don't understand. How do we decide which claims are relative, and which are to be taken seriously?
Nirvana seems to seriously claim to be superior to others. It explicitly says what it teaches is not expedient and that it has never been heard before by sravakas and pratyekabuddhas.

Thank you in advance for helping me understand Nichiren Buddhism better.

[rory]

Yes but East Asian Mahayana upholds the Lotus Sutra as being of the greatest importance, additionally it is agreed that the Buddha's last discourses were the Lotus and the Nirvana Sutra which is the colophon of the Lotus Sutra. So of course we give them paramount importance as the Buddha says these are his final words.

The great founder of the Tiantai sect Zhiyi (Chih-I) Wrote of the 5 Periods of the Buddha's Teaching
T'ien-T'ai taught that the Buddha taught over five periods (J. Go-ji). The five periods of the Buddha's teaching [according to T'ien-t'ai], were:

1) The Flower Garland period – taught immediately after the Buddha attained Enlightenment, lasting 3 weeks.[11][12]

2) The Agama Period – taught at Deer Park, and lasting 12 years.[11][12]

3) The Correct and Equal Period – lasting 8 years.[11][12]

4) The Wisdom Period – lasting 22 years.[11][12]

5) The Lotus and Nirvana Period – lasting 8 years.[11][12]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhiyi" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here is a good article by Prof Jan Nattier explaining the profound and radical ideas that come from the Lotus Sutra:
http://www.tricycle.com/special-section ... -awakening" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and here if you have scholarly interests are articles by the NIchiren scholar Jacqueline Stone, Princeton University
https://www.princeton.edu/~jstone/lotus ... hiren.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I hope this is useful to you
with gassho
Rory

[Yuren]

Where does the Nirvana state that it is the colophon of the Lotus? If the Nirvana is the colophon, why does it claim to be the supreme sutra?

[rory]

The Nirvana Sutra repeats the main important point of the Lotus Sutra: the Buddha is eternal, and also that all beings have Buddha nature and can become buddhas
here read this thread: http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=80" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In Nichiren Buddhism the Nirvana Sutra, with the Lotus Sutra make up what T'ien-T'ai called the Fifth of the Five Periods of Teaching.[19] The Nirvana Sutra is seen as inferior to the Lotus Sutra however, based on the passage in the Nirvana Sutra that reads:

When this sutra was preached . . . the prediction had already been made in the Lotus Sutra that the eight thousand voice-hearers would attain Buddhahood, a prediction that was like a great harvest. Thus, the autumn harvest was over and the crop had been stored away for winter [when the Nirvana Sutra was expounded], and there was nothing left for it [but a few gleanings]."[20]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_Su ... na_Schools" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
gassho
Rory

[Yuren]

the Buddha is eternal

Can you quote the relevant passage in the Lotus Sutra that claims this?

[Shingyo]

the Buddha is eternal

Can you quote the relevant passage in the Lotus Sutra that claims this?

I am not a Nichiren Buddhist admittedly, but if I recall, the pertinent part of the Lotus Sutra is Chapter 16. Typically the entire chapter is used for the teaching of the Buddha being eternal, but what was shown to me in particular from that chapter is:

"Thus it is, since I became Buddha in the very far distant past, [that my] lifetime is of infinite asamkhyeya kalpas,
forever existing and immortal." ~ (Threefold Lotus Sutra translated by Bunno Kato pg 159)

and

All those sinful creatures,
By reason of their evil karma,
Throughout asamkhyeya kalpas,
Hear not the name of the Precious Three.
But all who perform virtuous deeds
And are gentle and of upright nature,
These all see that I exist
And am here expounding the Law.
At times for all this throng
I preach the Buddha's life is eternal; ~ (Threefold Lotus Sutra translated by Bunno Kato pg 161)

EDIT: The same translation is searchable as a webpage at http://www.rk-world.org/publications/lo ... a_B16.html or you can freely download the PDF at that same page to use the page numbers I supplied.

I am sure more knowledgeable Nichiren Buddhists or others who are more familiar with the Lotus Sutra could be of help.

[Yuren]

I preach the Buddha's life is eternal; ~ (Threefold Lotus Sutra translated by Bunno Kato pg 161)

[/quote]

My translation says "I preach that the Buddha's life span is incalculable" (Hurvitz)

I can't say anything because I don't know Sanskrit or Chinese, but a few things:

1) the translator, Bunno Kato, is a Reverend. Of what denomination? Is he a Nichiren priest?

2) did he translate from Chinese or did he use Sanskrit fragments as well, as Hurvitz does? I'm pretty sure the word "Eternal" is not used originally. A scholar like Williams wouldn't make such an amateurish mistake

Hopefully someone knowledgeable in the Sutra text chimes in.

[DGA]

I believe Kato translated from Kumarajiva's Chinese version, which is canonical. I've been taught that Kumarajiva was himself enlightened.

[Yuren]

Kumarajiva's disciples were referred to as the Nirvana School which believed the Nirvana to be the foremost scripture, superior to the Lotus.
It's possible Kumarajiva (who is known for his non-literal translations) already interpreted Lotus through the prism of the Nirvana Sutra.
(Like Zhiyi after him. Even though the Lotus never used the word "tathagatagarbha" as far as I know.)

The Nirvana Sutra calls itself “the great sūtra of the Buddha’s eternity” (nityatā) I wonder if the same word (nityatā) is used in the Lotus.

[jikai]

Chapter sixteen opens with:

"自我得佛来所経諸劫数無量百千万億載阿僧祇..."
"Since I became a Buddha ...immeasurable hundreds of thousands of kotis of kalpas have passed.

and:
"為度衆生故、方便現涅槃而実不滅度常住此説法我常住於此..."

"For the sake of sentient beings, I use Skilful Means by entering nirvana. But I am in fact constantly abiding here teaching the Dharma"

While the words Eternal isn't used in a lot of the famous quotes from the 16th chapter of the Lotus Sutra, the implication of such quotes is fairly clear. In the case of the second quote, If he never enters Nirvana, is never 'extinguished (不滅), has no end, how could he have a beginning? i.e Eternal.

Gassho,
Jikai.

[jikai]

Also in Chapter 16 of the Lotus Sutra, the words "無量寿命" or "immeasurable lifespan" do occur...that is what is here usually translated as eternal....sorry if my other post made it seem like the term isn't in the chapter- it is, I just wanted to suggest that without the term 'eternal' the implication is still clearly inherent.
Gassho,
Jikai.