Nichiren's "cutting heads off" and the Nirvana Sutra's ants

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Yuren
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Nichiren's "cutting heads off" and the Nirvana Sutra's ants

Post by Yuren »

Can Nichiren's statement such as this one:
I have also received your news about the beheading of the Mongol envoys. How pitiful that they have beheaded the innocent Mongol envoys and yet failed to cut off the heads of the priests of the Nembutsu, Shingon, Zen and Ritsu sects, who are the real enemies of our country. — MWND: Moko Tsukai Gosho

Be interpreted through the Nirvana Sutra:
"The Buddha : One may well kill an ant and gain the sin of harming, but the killing of an Icchantika does not [constitute a sin]."

Who are these Icchantikas where killing them does not incur any karmic returns?
The Buddha said : A monk, nun, male or female lay disciple may be one.
One who having rejected the scriptures with unpleasant speech and does not, subsequently, even ask for forgiveness has entered into the path of the Icchantika."
I wonder if this is the scriptural source Nichiren's seemingly "militaristic" stance towards the "enemies" of the Lotus Sutra comes from?
markatex
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Re: Nichiren's "cutting heads off" and the Nirvana Sutra's a

Post by markatex »

I think the consensus is that Nichiren was being sarcastic with that statement, but I would be interested in hearing what others have to say about those passages in the Nirvana Sutra.
Yuren
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Re: Nichiren's "cutting heads off" and the Nirvana Sutra's a

Post by Yuren »

markatex wrote:I think the consensus is that Nichiren was being sarcastic with that statement, but I would be interested in hearing what others have to say about those passages in the Nirvana Sutra.
It's not just one statement, though. There are many statements. Do you think he's being sarcastic in each and every one of them?
I attacked the Zen school as the invention of the heavenly devil, and the True Word school as an evil doctrine that will ruin the nation, and insisted that the temples of the Nembutsu, Zen, and Precepts priests be burned down and the Nembutsu priests and the others beheaded ... repeated such things morning and evening and discussed them day and night. I also sternly informed [the government official] and several hundred officers that, no matter what punishment I might incur, I would not stop declaring these matters.”
markatex
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Re: Nichiren's "cutting heads off" and the Nirvana Sutra's a

Post by markatex »

Sarcastic or hyperbolic, yes.
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dzogchungpa
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Re: Nichiren's "cutting heads off" and the Nirvana Sutra's a

Post by dzogchungpa »

What a card.
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Son of Buddha
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Re: Nichiren's "cutting heads off" and the Nirvana Sutra's a

Post by Son of Buddha »

Yuren wrote:Can Nichiren's statement such as this one:
I have also received your news about the beheading of the Mongol envoys. How pitiful that they have beheaded the innocent Mongol envoys and yet failed to cut off the heads of the priests of the Nembutsu, Shingon, Zen and Ritsu sects, who are the real enemies of our country. — MWND: Moko Tsukai Gosho

Be interpreted through the Nirvana Sutra:
"The Buddha : One may well kill an ant and gain the sin of harming, but the killing of an Icchantika does not [constitute a sin]."

Who are these Icchantikas where killing them does not incur any karmic returns?
The Buddha said : A monk, nun, male or female lay disciple may be one.
One who having rejected the scriptures with unpleasant speech and does not, subsequently, even ask for forgiveness has entered into the path of the Icchantika."
I wonder if this is the scriptural source Nichiren's seemingly "militaristic" stance towards the "enemies" of the Lotus Sutra comes from?
The killing of the Icchantika is only found in the Dharmakashema version it is not found in the other versions of the Nirvana Sutra such as the faxian version.

In the Dharmakashema version an icchantika is defined by much more than just rejecting the sutras, for instance an icchsntika does not have even one good thought,the icchantika violates every single precept and does not ever feel remorse for anything ...... And the lists goes on . the main description of an icchantika is that he never feels remorse or love/compassion......once he does he is no longer classified as an icchantika.
Son of Buddha
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Re: Nichiren's "cutting heads off" and the Nirvana Sutra's a

Post by Son of Buddha »

Yuren wrote:
markatex wrote:I think the consensus is that Nichiren was being sarcastic with that statement, but I would be interested in hearing what others have to say about those passages in the Nirvana Sutra.
It's not just one statement, though. There are many statements. Do you think he's being sarcastic in each and every one of them?
I attacked the Zen school as the invention of the heavenly devil, and the True Word school as an evil doctrine that will ruin the nation, and insisted that the temples of the Nembutsu, Zen, and Precepts priests be burned down and the Nembutsu priests and the others beheaded ... repeated such things morning and evening and discussed them day and night. I also sternly informed [the government official] and several hundred officers that, no matter what punishment I might incur, I would not stop declaring these matters.”


For the answer to this question you have to read Nichirens goshos and read his life story through his writings.............to be short what Nichiren is asking for is justice.

Nichiren at first just asked for the Japanese gov to back him and establish his form of Buddhism as the state religion.

Then he was forceable banashed to freeze and starve to death on an island....... Then many leaders of other Buddhist sects tried to haveNichiren and his followers killed, for instance pureland leaders tried to assassinate him they hacked his arm with a sword and almost cut his head in half,and during that attack many of his followers were killed..... They tried to have beheaded......which failed.....they tried to starve and freeze to death....again, and there were cases of his followers being targeted for murder.

So by the time I read his passages asking for the beheading of certain sects leaders, I felt that he was only asking for those who had harmed him and his followers to be brought to justice for their actions
(note in some goshos Nichiren actually lists certain temples and certain leaders by name in other goshos he just makes blanket statements)

Also I'm a Purelander and not a Nichiren Buddhist.
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Queequeg
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Re: Nichiren's "cutting heads off" and the Nirvana Sutra's a

Post by Queequeg »

See Nichiren's Rissho Ankoku Ron in which he officially remonstrated with the Shogunate government against the Nembutsu advocates. After referencing the passages in the Nirvana Sutra on killing icchantikas he explains that this means cutting off financial support in light of the prohibition against killing.

In another writing later in life he recounted how he was arrested and sentenced to death and he said something like "you're going to kill me? Those people spreading false doctrines are the ones you should be killing!" This has been interpreted as Nichiren's sarcasm/hyperbole.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
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Re: Nichiren's "cutting heads off" and the Nirvana Sutra's a

Post by Myoho-Nameless »

No no no. you are all wrong. its all so obvious, there in black and white. We must all now go out and start killing everyone who slanders us, theres no two ways about it, yup. banzai.

:guns:
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Queequeg
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Re: Nichiren's "cutting heads off" and the Nirvana Sutra's a

Post by Queequeg »

Yo, watch out. You can't joke about that **** these days.
Last edited by DGA on Thu Jul 31, 2014 12:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: edited to remove an expletive
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Myoho-Nameless
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Re: Nichiren's "cutting heads off" and the Nirvana Sutra's a

Post by Myoho-Nameless »

yeah well I thought you can't say "sh*t".
"Keep The Gods Out Of It. Swear On Your Heads. Which I Will Take If You Break Your Vow."- Geralt of Rivia
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Re: Nichiren's "cutting heads off" and the Nirvana Sutra's a

Post by dude »

Queequeg wrote:See Nichiren's Rissho Ankoku Ron in which he officially remonstrated with the Shogunate government against the Nembutsu advocates. After referencing the passages in the Nirvana Sutra on killing icchantikas he explains that this means cutting off financial support in light of the prohibition against killing.

In another writing later in life he recounted how he was arrested and sentenced to death and he said something like "you're going to kill me? Those people spreading false doctrines are the ones you should be killing!" This has been interpreted as Nichiren's sarcasm/hyperbole.
You're right, and it should be obvious to anyone who reads up on it.
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