4 virtues of Nirvana(permanence,bliss,purity,true self)

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nichirenista
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4 virtues of Nirvana(permanence,bliss,purity,true self)

Post by nichirenista »

I understand that this is an important aspect of Nichiren Buddhism, but I don't know much about it.
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Queequeg
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Re: 4 virtues of Nirvana(permanence,bliss,purity,true self)

Post by Queequeg »

Its the inversion of four characteristics of Samsara, namely, impermanence, suffering, impurity and no-self. The significance of these four in Lotus Buddhism has to do with the complete mutuality between the world of Buddha and the other nine worlds. What we see as impermanent, suffering, impure and no-self, is actually the same as the Buddha's permanence, bliss, purity and true self. The problem for us is that we are deluded and therefore don't see reality as-it-is. As the Vimalakirti sutra says, (paraphrase) there are not two lands pure and impure; appearance is due to the beings dwelling in it.

In Nichiren Buddhism, the highest awakening is to have faith that the world of Buddhahood is our own life. Faith is necessary because we do not see this reality so long as we do not attain full blown Buddhahood. "The true aspect is only understood and shared between Buddhas"

Having aroused faith, we are then irreversibly entered upon the path to Buddhahood.

The thing is, this faith is technically adhimukti - a subtle, neutral disposition where one sees the world of Buddhahood yet without understanding. You can reject it, an intentional act, but you can't unsee it. Having seen, one will eventually come to understand. This is why even the so called poison drum ends in Buddhahood. If you can embrace it, then you are well on your way.

NMRK is a declaration of ones faith. Chanting it is a practice to deeply engrave this faith in the deepest aspects of our life. Study, with faith and practice deepen our wisdom and bring us toward awakening.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Son of Buddha
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Re: 4 virtues of Nirvana(permanence,bliss,purity,true self)

Post by Son of Buddha »

Queequeg wrote:Its the inversion of four characteristics of Samsara, namely, impermanence, suffering, impurity and no-self. The significance of these four in Lotus Buddhism has to do with the complete mutuality between the world of Buddha and the other nine worlds. What we see as impermanent, suffering, impure and no-self, is actually the same as the Buddha's permanence, bliss, purity and true self. The problem for us is that we are deluded and therefore don't see reality as-it-is.
Here is some supporting passages from the Nirvana Sutra
V426. “Also, O good man! As an example, there is a medicine in the Himalayas called pleasing taste. It tastes very sweet. It grows hidden under a deep growth of plants, and we cannot easily see it. But from its scent, one can come to know the whereabouts of this medicine. In days gone by, there was a chakravartin who, placing wooden tubes here and there in the Himalayas, collected this medicine When it had ripened, it flowed out and entered the tubes. It tasted truly right medicine became sour, salty, sweet, bitter, or hot, or light.

Thus, what is one, tastes differently according to the different places. The true taste of the medicine remains in the mountains; it is like the full moon. Any common mortal, sterile in virtue, may work hard, dig, and try, but cannot get it. Only a chakravartin, high in virtue, appearing in the world can arrive at the true value of this medicine because of happy circumstantial concatenations.
The same is the case [here]. O good man! The taste of the hidden store of the Tathagata is also like this. Overspread by all the growths of defilement, the beings clad in ignorance cannot hope to see it.
We speak of the “one taste”. This applies, for instance, to the Buddha-Nature. On account of the presence of defilement, several tastes appear, such as the realms of hell, animals, hungry pretas, devas, human beings, men, women, non-men, non-women, Kshatriya, Brahmin, Vaishya and Sudra.


All the phenomenal reality(impermanence,impurity,suffering,no self) is an illusion that arises dependendent upon the Buddha Nature(Permanence,purity,bliss,true self).

So when us samsaric beings see "Enlightenment/one taste" we see only the illusion(gods,humans,animals,pretas,hell,and the realms) we dont see the ultimate reality for what it actually is.
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Re: 4 virtues of Nirvana(permanence,bliss,purity,true self)

Post by DGA »

Any evidence at all that Nichiren taught Buddhahood to be the realization of True Self in the sense of an atman, or Buddha nature as a "True Self"?

or anything else as a True Self?

anything?
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Re: 4 virtues of Nirvana(permanence,bliss,purity,true self)

Post by Caoimhghín »

True self is not-self. The only way I can think of true-self being a kosher concept in Buddhism is if it is so fundamentally different from false self-conceptions that it isn't even a self-conception at all. Both not-self and true-self. Neither not-self nor true-self.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
DGA
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Re: 4 virtues of Nirvana(permanence,bliss,purity,true self)

Post by DGA »

put differently:

did Nichiren teach Buddhahood as True Self in any way that corresponds to the radical selfishness as preached in the writings of the 20th century entrepreneur, Ayn Rand?

I'm asking on behalf of a friend.

context:

http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f= ... 34#p362029
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Re: 4 virtues of Nirvana(permanence,bliss,purity,true self)

Post by Queequeg »

No.
Nichiren taught selfless pursuit of awakening for oneself and for others. It would not be wrong to say practice for others is the true practice for oneself. That's why he taught shakubuku rather than shoju.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: 4 virtues of Nirvana(permanence,bliss,purity,true self)

Post by Queequeg »

I guess the question is actually whether Nichiren taught self?

No. Of course not. True self is not self.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: 4 virtues of Nirvana(permanence,bliss,purity,true self)

Post by Caoimhghín »

Queequeg wrote:I guess the question is actually whether Nichiren taught self?

No. Of course not. True self is not self.
I don't know what the words were that were originally used for the concept of "true self". But if true self is not-self, then I think it follows, that maybe, IMO, in English, the most-clear expression of the concept of "true self" in Nichiren Buddhism is not "Nichiren taught true self", but rather, "Nichiren taught truth", since true self is not-self.

Forgive me for being a pedant, it is a dreadful personality flaw.

Edit: This post was a bit too ambiguous, I think. "True self" is a concept that comes up in various sūtrāṇi and is a well-established linguistic convention in Mahāyāna Buddhism, for the simple reason that the Buddha saw fit to say it. Instead of the above, what I tried to communicate was the sentiment that:

you are not a "self". you are "truth". True self is not self. "True self", if such a thing exists or not, is simply "truth". Nichiren taught "truth" in the context of what you wrongly believe to be "you", in fact, is "truth". I hope that is clearer.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Re: 4 virtues of Nirvana(permanence,bliss,purity,true self)

Post by Queequeg »

True self is from the mahayana mahaparinirvana sutra. It's got extensive explanation there.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: 4 virtues of Nirvana(permanence,bliss,purity,true self)

Post by Caoimhghín »

Queequeg wrote:True self is from the mahayana mahaparinirvana sutra. It's got extensive explanation there.
Yes, I felt I had to add my edit because, in hindsight, the original post seemed like I was denying the Mahāyānamahāparinirvāṇasūtra, which was not my intention.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Queequeg
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Re: 4 virtues of Nirvana(permanence,bliss,purity,true self)

Post by Queequeg »

Nichiren didn't really get into self, not self, and all the rest of that mysterious oriental philosophizing.

Zhiyi addressed it in terms of threefold inclusive truth. Nichiren took that teaching without controversy and sought instead the universal path that culminated in its practical realization.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: 4 virtues of Nirvana(permanence,bliss,purity,true self)

Post by Minobu »

self connotes something inherent . If you look at it from the point of emptiness it becomes a co arising and inter dependent non self.

atman is definitely something inherent and there fore non existent and impossible. someone mentioned atman.

all in samsara is impermanent so the state of Nirvana is permanence due to it's total lack of karmic influence which lends to purity and bliss, hence true self

I could be wrong.... the above is just how i see things at the moment.
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Re: 4 virtues of Nirvana(permanence,bliss,purity,true self)

Post by Queequeg »

That sounds about right. But I'm not very good with all that high philosophy. My mind breaks impressionistic rather than literal/rational/meticulous.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: 4 virtues of Nirvana(permanence,bliss,purity,true self)

Post by Minobu »

Queequeg wrote:That sounds about right. But I'm not very good with all that high philosophy. My mind breaks impressionistic rather than literal/rational/meticulous.
I think you are being far to humble, but i also realize that practice is far more important than wrapping our heads around this stuff.
as someone said and pointed to , it eventually will come to you when you realize Buddhahood.
d
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