The Sin of Slandering the Dharma by Jacqueline Stone

Re: The Sin of Slandering the Dharma by Jacqueline Stone

Postby nichirenista » Wed Aug 06, 2014 4:57 am

nichirenista wrote:No. I choose to follow the only correct Buddhist path. No one forces it on me.


For the record, I was joking here. In my practice of Buddhism, Nichiren Buddhism is the only correct form of Buddhism -- for me. Stone concludes the article by writing that Nichiren's views were very much of his time and place.
User avatar
nichirenista
 
Posts: 217
Joined: Wed May 28, 2014 7:24 am

Re: The Sin of Slandering the Dharma by Jacqueline Stone

Postby nichirenista » Wed Aug 06, 2014 5:12 am

Queequeg wrote:Nichiren's rhetoric was not extraordinary at his time. Remember, we're talking about a time when monks were armed to the teeth and regularly burned down each other's monasteries.


Um…. Wow.

With a history like this, and a present reality of Buddhist violence in Burma, I sometimes wonder where the West ever got the idea that Buddhism is a peaceful religion.
User avatar
nichirenista
 
Posts: 217
Joined: Wed May 28, 2014 7:24 am

Re: The Sin of Slandering the Dharma by Jacqueline Stone

Postby Masaru » Wed Aug 06, 2014 5:26 am

nichirenista wrote:Um…. Wow.

With a history like this, and a present reality of Buddhist violence in Burma, I sometimes wonder where the West ever got the idea that Buddhism is a peaceful religion.


When it comes to defending Buddhism, I'm all for the teachings of Chungdrag Dorje's tulku, Steven Seagal. Sometimes violence is just unavoidable. But people get into fist fights over sports teams or which beer is better. Why should religion be different?
A certain man said to the priest Shungaku, "The Lotus Sutra Sect's character is not good because it's so fearsome." Shungaku replied, "It is by reason of its fearsome character that it is the Lotus Sutra Sect. If its character were not so, it would be a different sect altogether."
-- The Hagakure

Image
User avatar
Masaru
 
Posts: 115
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:10 am

Re: The Sin of Slandering the Dharma by Jacqueline Stone

Postby uan » Wed Aug 06, 2014 5:46 am

Masaru wrote:
nichirenista wrote:Um…. Wow.

With a history like this, and a present reality of Buddhist violence in Burma, I sometimes wonder where the West ever got the idea that Buddhism is a peaceful religion.


When it comes to defending Buddhism, I'm all for the teachings of Chungdrag Dorje's tulku, Steven Seagal. Sometimes violence is just unavoidable. But people get into fist fights over sports teams or which beer is better. Why should religion be different?


Yes, it's always been easy to justify killing in the name of religion.
uan
 
Posts: 380
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2011 4:58 am

Re: The Sin of Slandering the Dharma by Jacqueline Stone

Postby Masaru » Wed Aug 06, 2014 6:01 am

uan wrote:Yes, it's always been easy to justify killing in the name of religion.


No, but it is another convenient excuse. Why should we be surprised when it gets commandeered for that purpose. However, one thing Buddhism has never done is to start conquests for the purpose of gaining converts. Even the Burmese conflict is defensive.
A certain man said to the priest Shungaku, "The Lotus Sutra Sect's character is not good because it's so fearsome." Shungaku replied, "It is by reason of its fearsome character that it is the Lotus Sutra Sect. If its character were not so, it would be a different sect altogether."
-- The Hagakure

Image
User avatar
Masaru
 
Posts: 115
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:10 am

Re: The Sin of Slandering the Dharma by Jacqueline Stone

Postby rory » Wed Aug 06, 2014 6:12 am

easy no Crusades no Inquisition,no extermination of the Cathars, no Reformation and wars of religion, no Witch burnings, no persecutions & killing of the Jews, no Jihad (most people forget that Arab colonialism extended from Spain, North Africa, to India and Indonesia and Malaysia) no Dhimmi status, no forced conversions (Mosul today and Edgardo Mortara in 19th-20th century Italy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgardo_Mortara

Basically in Japan the monks would burn their rivals' temples down, leaving regular people alone. It's very very different from the West. Burma and Sri Lanka exist but they are the exception not the norm.
gassho
Rory
Dharani of Amoghapasa Avalokitesvara:

Om amogha-padma-pasa-krodhakarsaya praveshaya maha-pashupati-yama-varuna-kuvera
brahma-vesa-dhara padma-kula-samayan hum hum

heart mantra: Om amogha vijaya hum phat
User avatar
rory
 
Posts: 714
Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 8:08 am
Location: SouthEast USA

Re: The Sin of Slandering the Dharma by Jacqueline Stone

Postby uan » Wed Aug 06, 2014 6:20 am

Masaru wrote:Even the Burmese conflict is defensive.


So how does karma work in this situation? I mean, if a person kills someone in a conflict, even in defense of Buddhism, at some future point, when they die, is that like a "get out of the consequences of my actions because it was done in the name of Buddha" - free card?

I mean, I get how it might work if you're a bodhisattva on the higher levels of the bhumis, free from all afflictions, etc. But for most people, conflicts involving killing, and from those people I know who've been in combat, it involves a lot of fear, a fair bit of hatred, anger, contempt, not to mention exhilaration, joy, etc. So how does their karma get resolved?
uan
 
Posts: 380
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2011 4:58 am

Re: The Sin of Slandering the Dharma by Jacqueline Stone

Postby nichirenista » Wed Aug 06, 2014 6:29 am

rory wrote:easy no Crusades no Inquisition,no extermination of the Cathars, no Reformation and wars of religion, no Witch burnings, no persecutions & killing of the Jews, no Jihad (most people forget that Arab colonialism extended from Spain, North Africa, to India and Indonesia and Malaysia) no Dhimmi status, no forced conversions (Mosul today and Edgardo Mortara in 19th-20th century Italy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgardo_Mortara

Basically in Japan the monks would burn their rivals' temples down, leaving regular people alone. It's very very different from the West. Burma and Sri Lanka exist but they are the exception not the norm.
gassho
Rory


Well, then let's say "less violent" than the West. But not completely nonviolent.
User avatar
nichirenista
 
Posts: 217
Joined: Wed May 28, 2014 7:24 am

Re: The Sin of Slandering the Dharma by Jacqueline Stone

Postby rory » Wed Aug 06, 2014 6:54 am

So how does karma work in this situation? I mean, if a person kills someone in a conflict, even in defense of Buddhism, at some future point, when they die, is that like a "get out of the consequences of my actions because it was done in the name of Buddha" - free card?

I mean, I get how it might work if you're a bodhisattva on the higher levels of the bhumis, free from all afflictions, etc. But for most people, conflicts involving killing, and from those people I know who've been in combat, it involves a lot of fear, a fair bit of hatred, anger, contempt, not to mention exhilaration, joy, etc. So how does their karma get resolved?

[/quote]

Uan you need to realize that Tibetan Buddhism follows either Yogacara or Indian Madhyamika philosophy and don't much read the Lotus Sutra; whereas Nichiren Buddhism follows the Lotus Sutra and the Tendai school, these are East Asian intellectual developments that Tibetan Buddhism isn't a part of. ... If you read the sutra it states that those who uphold it will become bodhisattvas and chanting it wipes out bad karma (this is common in East Asian Buddhism). I know Queequeg and others can post the appropriate quotes. Nichiren himself stated that he and practitioners would be born in Shakyamuni's pure land of Sacred Eagle Peak, others wish to be reborn as bodhisattvas.
gassho
Rory
Dharani of Amoghapasa Avalokitesvara:

Om amogha-padma-pasa-krodhakarsaya praveshaya maha-pashupati-yama-varuna-kuvera
brahma-vesa-dhara padma-kula-samayan hum hum

heart mantra: Om amogha vijaya hum phat
User avatar
rory
 
Posts: 714
Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 8:08 am
Location: SouthEast USA

Re: The Sin of Slandering the Dharma by Jacqueline Stone

Postby Mkoll » Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:14 am

uan wrote:
Masaru wrote:Even the Burmese conflict is defensive.


So how does karma work in this situation? I mean, if a person kills someone in a conflict, even in defense of Buddhism, at some future point, when they die, is that like a "get out of the consequences of my actions because it was done in the name of Buddha" - free card?

I mean, I get how it might work if you're a bodhisattva on the higher levels of the bhumis, free from all afflictions, etc. But for most people, conflicts involving killing, and from those people I know who've been in combat, it involves a lot of fear, a fair bit of hatred, anger, contempt, not to mention exhilaration, joy, etc. So how does their karma get resolved?

I doubt it's a free card. Killing human beings is some of the very worst kamma one can do, regardless of the circumstances. Still, it's probable that killing someone to protect others isn't as bad a kamma as killing so as to steal something from someone or something similarly evil.

As to exactly how it gets resolved, who can say?

AN 4.77 wrote:"There are these four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them. Which four?

"The Buddha-range of the Buddhas[1] is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.

"The jhana-range of a person in jhana...[2]

"The [precise working out of the] results of kamma...

"Conjecture about [the origin, etc., of] the world is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.

"These are the four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them."
[my emphasis added]
Peace,
James
User avatar
Mkoll
 
Posts: 547
Joined: Mon May 26, 2014 5:53 am
Location: USA

Re: The Sin of Slandering the Dharma by Jacqueline Stone

Postby rory » Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:48 am

You have no clue about Tiantai philosophy or Nichiren's views: I suggest you make a small effort to understand

I am paraphrasing from J. Stone's brilliant book "Original Enlightenment and the Transformation of Medieval Japanese Buddhism." In the Tiantai view Enlightenment is non-linear.
Enlightenment is a timeless state in which original cause (9 realms) and original effect (Buddhahood) exist simultaneously and for Nichiren practitioners accesible by chanting the Daimoku. This is pure Tiantai philosophy. Anyway to proceed:

The practitioner does not progressively expunge defilements or accumulate merit by with a view to reaching eventual enlightenment, because all merit is inherit in the daimoku and 'naturally transferred' to the person who embraces it. p.295


This comes from the Lotus Sutra which you are unfamilair with; here read this article by Jan Nattier in Tricycle, I keep posting it so the Tibetan Buddhists/Theravadins have some clue about East Asian Buddhism and our very different philosophical basis:
http://www.tricycle.com/special-section/greater-awakening
gassho
rory
Dharani of Amoghapasa Avalokitesvara:

Om amogha-padma-pasa-krodhakarsaya praveshaya maha-pashupati-yama-varuna-kuvera
brahma-vesa-dhara padma-kula-samayan hum hum

heart mantra: Om amogha vijaya hum phat
User avatar
rory
 
Posts: 714
Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 8:08 am
Location: SouthEast USA

Re: The Sin of Slandering the Dharma by Jacqueline Stone

Postby Masaru » Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:56 am

uan wrote:So how does karma work in this situation? I mean, if a person kills someone in a conflict, even in defense of Buddhism, at some future point, when they die, is that like a "get out of the consequences of my actions because it was done in the name of Buddha" - free card?

I mean, I get how it might work if you're a bodhisattva on the higher levels of the bhumis, free from all afflictions, etc. But for most people, conflicts involving killing, and from those people I know who've been in combat, it involves a lot of fear, a fair bit of hatred, anger, contempt, not to mention exhilaration, joy, etc. So how does their karma get resolved?


I just go by whatever Steven Seagal would do.
A certain man said to the priest Shungaku, "The Lotus Sutra Sect's character is not good because it's so fearsome." Shungaku replied, "It is by reason of its fearsome character that it is the Lotus Sutra Sect. If its character were not so, it would be a different sect altogether."
-- The Hagakure

Image
User avatar
Masaru
 
Posts: 115
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:10 am

Re: The Sin of Slandering the Dharma by Jacqueline Stone

Postby Mkoll » Wed Aug 06, 2014 8:30 am

rory wrote:You have no clue about Tiantai philosophy or Nichiren's views: I suggest you make a small effort to understand

If you were talking to me, I'm not sure why. I was responding to uan and giving him my own opinion.

If you weren't talking to me, then you can ignore this post. :smile:

EDIT: And thanks for the link. I'm reading it now.
Peace,
James
User avatar
Mkoll
 
Posts: 547
Joined: Mon May 26, 2014 5:53 am
Location: USA

Re: The Sin of Slandering the Dharma by Jacqueline Stone

Postby Queequeg » Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:22 am

Getting off topic with the questions of armed monks and the karmic stains of killing...

I don't think Nichiren ever addressed the issue of the armed monks directly, but it was such a regular feature of life at that time that it likely contributed to the perception that we are indeed in the Latter Day when the Buddha Shakyamuni's provisional teachings were no longer efficacious. Nichiren and his followers were accused of stockpiling arms but Nichiren denied this and other than his own reports of the accusations there is no evidence. He did have many lay supporters who were samurai and when traveling in hostile lands was accompanied by guards. On several occasions he was violently attacked and was lucky to escape with his life while others he was traveling with were killed. He and his supporters were also subject to government persecution leading to his imprisonment, exile and even near execution. Monastic and lay supporters were also persecuted, with many losing the patronage of their lords, imprisoned and even executed. All of this over Dharma. Regardless whether you agree with Nichiren's views or not, the fact that matters of religion could lead to such events speaks volumes about the times.

With regard to killing, despite a few instances of what appears to be no more than rhetoric, Nichiren was a monk who observed the vows of a monastic. He was celibate, vegetarian, and certainly did not endorse killing. The mother of a samurai wrote to Nichiren worried about the karmic effects that the young man would suffer for the murders he committed in the service of his lord. Nichiren responded telling her he could not escape the consequences, whatever they might be. However, he assured her the tremendous good karma from his Buddhist practice and devotion could ameliorate the effects of his evil acts. Nichiren himself believed that the persecution he suffered was the effect of his past acts.

Killing is bad. It ought not be done lest one have to eventually pay the price. Nichiren Buddhism does not depart from the rest of Buddhism on this point.
Queequeg
 
Posts: 393
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: The Sin of Slandering the Dharma by Jacqueline Stone

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Aug 06, 2014 2:02 pm

Queequeg wrote:Does the Lotus Sutra qualify as the teaching of an Indian Master?
It was preached by the Buddha, right?
There are teachings of Bodhisattva practice that don't necessarily include the Paramitas, at least immediately.
Bodhisattva path without Paramita???
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 9809
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: The Sin of Slandering the Dharma by Jacqueline Stone

Postby uan » Wed Aug 06, 2014 4:47 pm

rory wrote:Uan you need to realize that Tibetan Buddhism follows either Yogacara or Indian Madhyamika philosophy and don't much read the Lotus Sutra; whereas Nichiren Buddhism follows the Lotus Sutra and the Tendai school, these are East Asian intellectual developments that Tibetan Buddhism isn't a part of. ...


Rory, thanks for the insight into Nichiren Buddhism. I know this is the Nichiren sub forum, so I try to understand the issues from within that framework. The article by Jan Nattier in Tricycle was helpful.

Mkoll wrote:I was responding to uan and giving him my own opinion.


Much appreciated :twothumbsup:


Masaru wrote:I just go by whatever Steven Seagal would do.
:rolling:
uan
 
Posts: 380
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2011 4:58 am

Re: The Sin of Slandering the Dharma by Jacqueline Stone

Postby Queequeg » Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:34 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Queequeg wrote:There are teachings of Bodhisattva practice that don't necessarily include the Paramitas, at least immediately.
Bodhisattva path without Paramita???

Who said there were no Paramita?

If you have no familiarity with East Asian Lotus Buddhism, its a looong conversation.
Queequeg
 
Posts: 393
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: The Sin of Slandering the Dharma by Jacqueline Stone

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:48 pm

Queequeg wrote:If you have no familiarity with East Asian Lotus Buddhism, its a looong conversation.
Well, can you at least explain the "not immediately" bit please?
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 9809
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: The Sin of Slandering the Dharma by Jacqueline Stone

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Aug 06, 2014 8:19 pm

Discussion on Vinaya split to here.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 9809
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: The Sin of Slandering the Dharma by Jacqueline Stone

Postby nichirenista » Wed Aug 06, 2014 9:40 pm

I think this is something most people do not take into account about Nichiren and his times. People just hear stories about him saying that only his form of Buddhism is correct, and they think he was some atypical fanatic. In today's world, particularly the West, the image of a Buddhist monk being militant, and of some being "armed to the teeth" and ready to attack rivals, is unimaginable, if not shocking. Suffice it to say that the average Westerner, and certainly the average American, doesn't know much about medieval Japanese history.

Um. Count me in there. I am certainly familiar with the fact that Nichiren was persecuted and that there were great rivalries at the time, but why? Why were the times so violent?


Queequeg wrote:Getting off topic with the questions of armed monks and the karmic stains of killing...

I don't think Nichiren ever addressed the issue of the armed monks directly, but it was such a regular feature of life at that time that it likely contributed to the perception that we are indeed in the Latter Day when the Buddha Shakyamuni's provisional teachings were no longer efficacious. Nichiren and his followers were accused of stockpiling arms but Nichiren denied this and other than his own reports of the accusations there is no evidence. He did have many lay supporters who were samurai and when traveling in hostile lands was accompanied by guards. On several occasions he was violently attacked and was lucky to escape with his life while others he was traveling with were killed. He and his supporters were also subject to government persecution leading to his imprisonment, exile and even near execution. Monastic and lay supporters were also persecuted, with many losing the patronage of their lords, imprisoned and even executed. All of this over Dharma. Regardless whether you agree with Nichiren's views or not, the fact that matters of religion could lead to such events speaks volumes about the times.

With regard to killing, despite a few instances of what appears to be no more than rhetoric, Nichiren was a monk who observed the vows of a monastic. He was celibate, vegetarian, and certainly did not endorse killing. The mother of a samurai wrote to Nichiren worried about the karmic effects that the young man would suffer for the murders he committed in the service of his lord. Nichiren responded telling her he could not escape the consequences, whatever they might be. However, he assured her the tremendous good karma from his Buddhist practice and devotion could ameliorate the effects of his evil acts. Nichiren himself believed that the persecution he suffered was the effect of his past acts.

Killing is bad. It ought not be done lest one have to eventually pay the price. Nichiren Buddhism does not depart from the rest of Buddhism on this point.
User avatar
nichirenista
 
Posts: 217
Joined: Wed May 28, 2014 7:24 am

PreviousNext

Return to Nichiren

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

>