Question about current SGI Gohonzon

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nichirenista
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Re: Question about current SGI Gohonzon

Post by nichirenista »

Okay, well…. As I was saying…. I experienced near-bliss to receive a new Gohonzon. It felt wonderful to start off with a clean slate. I feel reborn in my practice. All drama and controversy I referred to earlier regarding a Nichiren temple now feels GONE!

But a big surprise here…. after chanting to my new Gohonzon, I then looked at the one I was given at the temple -- and I found that I'm fond of it too. I wonder if, in some way, getting this new Gohonzon purified my practice -- AND the Gohonzon I was given at the temple.

Thanks. :namaste:
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Re: Question about current SGI Gohonzon

Post by dude »

sounds like progress to me.
I'm interested in anything else you have to say in the future, mostly because it may help shed some light on the bind that I now find myself in.
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Re: Question about current SGI Gohonzon

Post by rory »

whatever is the reason; I'm glad for you Nichirenista...perhaps it is your final decision to leave the sturm und drang of the temple..so the old Gohonzon isn't a reminder of the roiling dysfunction. You made a wise decision and Dude, I'm sorry you are having problems...
gassho
rory
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Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/
Masaru
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Re: Question about current SGI Gohonzon

Post by Masaru »

Q, I'm not sure that Nichirenista is in a Buddhist "wilderness." The West Coast has a history of Asian influence that goes back to the mid to late 1800's. I'd say he's in the North American cradle of Buddhadharma. The "Roman Britain" of the Buddhist realm. Also, Protestants do seem to be much more keen on giving things away for the sake of propagation, and the idea that you can "pay the sin away" does still seem to be a significant feature of Catholic faith. I hear it's what Mexico's cartel leader's try to do.

It sounds like you got wrapped up in a Japanese-American culture society disguised as a temple, Nichirenista. When we can't find companions who are sincere seekers nearby, the Buddha counsels us to walk alone when we must. Nichiren reminds us to enrich ourselves with faith, practice, and study!

http://youtu.be/PeVZ5yuc4pY" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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nichirenista
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Re: Question about current SGI Gohonzon

Post by nichirenista »

Interesting point, Masaru. I remember reading an article in either Buddhadharma or Shambala Sun that said the West Coast is the traditional "heartland" of Buddhism in the USA. And, yes, I am on the West Coast. I am originally from the San Francisco area, and as a child one my my favorite things was to visit Chinatown in SF -- one of the biggest congregations of Chinese outside of Asia.

But there's the flipside to this. The West Coast is littered with Japanese American internment camps. Temples here were often used as places to store the belongings of member when they were interned. Several people at the temple I attended were born in Japanese American internment camps.

I'm not sure what my point here is. It may be this: yes, it's true that there may, perhaps, be a greater Asian influence on the West Coast than in other areas of the country. But the area I live in is actually relatively redneck Born Again Christian. When a Buddhist temple was built an hour away -- there were protests from a local Christian group.
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Re: Question about current SGI Gohonzon

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When you consider, say, Thailand, or Japan, or any other number of places where Buddhadharma is/was the paradigm, it is readily apparent that no place in North America compares; continuing with the analogy, the West Coast is at best a pioneer colony of Buddhism, in the wilderness on the periphery of the Buddhist world.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Question about current SGI Gohonzon

Post by Myoho-Nameless »

Queequeg wrote:When you consider, say, Thailand, or Japan, or any other number of places where Buddhadharma is/was the paradigm, it is readily apparent that no place in North America compares; continuing with the analogy, the West Coast is at best a pioneer colony of Buddhism, in the wilderness on the periphery of the Buddhist world.
Verily, yes. We might be the most Buddhist part of the USA here in the Godless belt, but from another perspective that is not really saying much. Not to be a downer. propagation takes time and patience. Not easy for people in the digital age no?

Hawai'i seemed pretty "Buddhist" when I was there though, more so than California. Perhaps that will be the dragonstone from which the Buddhist Targaryens will come to conquer our land.
"Keep The Gods Out Of It. Swear On Your Heads. Which I Will Take If You Break Your Vow."- Geralt of Rivia
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Re: Question about current SGI Gohonzon

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I think Buddhism is difficult for anyone in any age... At least the digital age allows access to libraries of resources that were only available to a lucky few before! Anyone who can undertake practice in any age is worthy of respect! The attention thing is an obstacle - but Buddhist practice is great for addressing that!

Maybe some Bodhisattva guarded by Nagas will come from Hawaii, but, you can see what happens to people sent from Hawaii to lead on the mainland - they don't fare too well... Just imagine if Obama was Buddhist!
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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nichirenista
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Re: Question about current SGI Gohonzon

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Myoho-Nameless wrote:
Queequeg wrote:When you consider, say, Thailand, or Japan, or any other number of places where Buddhadharma is/was the paradigm, it is readily apparent that no place in North America compares; continuing with the analogy, the West Coast is at best a pioneer colony of Buddhism, in the wilderness on the periphery of the Buddhist world.
Verily, yes. We might be the most Buddhist part of the USA here in the Godless belt, but from another perspective that is not really saying much. Not to be a downer. propagation takes time and patience. Not easy for people in the digital age no?

Hawai'i seemed pretty "Buddhist" when I was there though, more so than California. Perhaps that will be the dragonstone from which the Buddhist Targaryens will come to conquer our land.
A can of worms I probably shouldn't open, but here goes: I'm fascinated with Hawaii for many reasons. This led to me to a conversation at the temple with a Japanese American woman from Hawaii. I mentioned to her that I love my Hawaiian friends, but have been surprised to see in them a discomfort with my practice of Buddhism. My friend explained to me that it was the tradition in Hawaii that only people of Asian descent could join Buddhist temples. Today, of course, anyone can join, I suppose. But in the earlier days, that wasn't the case.
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Re: Question about current SGI Gohonzon

Post by Masaru »

The way I see it, those temples and sanghas count as "settlements" of Buddhist culture and teaching. The fact that these figurative settlements have been figuratively pillaged by figurative barbarians in the past does not negate the fact that they are still standing and active. In other words, our friend does have resources and people practicing nearby he can draw from if he chooses to. A female contributor from the ichinensanzen forum with the married name Chavez told me she had practiced with a "non-denominational Nichiren sangha," and the fact that such a thing even exists in California, where she lives, tells me there is an immensely different spiritual landscape there. Here in Texas, the only non-SGI Nichiren groups we have is Nichiren Shu. Their temple is a room on Myokei Shonin's house. SGI's headquarters and Shoshu's main US temple are in Cali. The Buddhist influence seems to be there, but muted, as historically the Asians and their influence has been.

It doesn't surprise me about not allowing non-Asians to join temples in the past. Not only are Japanese a bit insular themselves, (meh, we could say a bit racist,) but in the past Buddhism was persecuted and looked down on in the US, not to mention that Americans have always had racial varna that were a lot less informal then. Who needs some long nosed jerk mucking up the community? My elderly SGI sponsor and her friends were always happy to see new people practicing, and they didn't discriminate in their recruiting. I remember her bringing in one black woman who would only deal with her and made it clear she wouldn't deal with white people. My sponsor said that was okay, just to chant. I also remember meeting a very old, Anglo-American man who had been strict Southern Baptist his whole life until then. He stopped chanting and said "I've sought after the truth my whole life and never found it except here in this Gohonzon." Hearing that changed me.
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nichirenista
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Re: Question about current SGI Gohonzon

Post by nichirenista »

Thank for the interesting response, Masaru. Very interesting perspective.

Thinking hard about how to properly respond to your post, I'll state it this way…. Yes, that's an interesting way to think about it, that temples are Buddhist/Asian settlements. But the thing is, the temple I refer to often had between five to ten attendees. I've been to services at this temple that had TWO people -- including the sensei. Many Japanese Americans showed up for the yearly garage sale, which is the bulk of the temple's yearly income. But the older generation is dying off and is not replacing itself, and I was quite a curiosity for taking the religion so seriously.

To back up a bit, Queequeg's point is that in Asia, Buddhism is "the establishment." That is not the case anywhere in he US. Not even the West Coast. Yes, in the West there are temples that are as much as 100 years old. But, despite popular opinion, the West is not the liberal utopia people think it is. Have you ever read about the history of the KKK in the Pacific Northwest?

On another level, I will admit that the major city I live outside of DOES have a very strong Buddhist presence -- but Tibetan Buddhist. When I visit the local major city (I'm an hour outside of it), I usually wear my Juzu on the outside because -- I'm not kidding -- it gets me more respect. (I have a Juzu that I wear as a necklace and one I wrap on my wrist. Before anyone condemns me as blasphemous, I've asked various authorities if this is okay, and I've been told that it is.) But if the subject of Buddhism ever comes up, I keep it vague. I say, yes, I'm a Buddhist. But I don't mention that I chant nam(u)-myoho-renge-kyo! While it's true that Buddhism is in vogue in the local major city, it is Tibetan Buddhism that is in vogue -- as Tibetan prayer flags are everywhere!

So, as a Nichiren Buddhist (particularly one who is now unaffiliated), I still feel I'm in the wilderness. Let's compromise. I may be in the wilderness, but maybe you're in the jungle. :)
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Re: Question about current SGI Gohonzon

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nichirenista wrote:
To back up a bit, Queequeg's point is that in Asia, Buddhism is "the establishment." That is not the case anywhere in he US. Not even the West Coast. Yes, in the West there are temples that are as much as 100 years old. But, despite popular opinion, the West is not the liberal utopia people think it is. Have you ever read about the history of the KKK in the Pacific Northwest?
as a native Oregonian, I can vouch for this. And it's not just the KKK taking over the state and outlawing the Catholic Church in the 1920s. It's on and on into the present. I remember skinhead thugs beating a black man to death in the streets when I was an adolescent. His name was Mulugeta Seraw, a medical student with great aspirations to help people.

Interestingly, there's also a long history of cooperation-when-necessary.

http://www.oregonstateparks.org/index.c ... e&parkId=5" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

sorry to lead us off topic. this is a topic I feel strongly about.
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Re: Question about current SGI Gohonzon

Post by Myoho-Nameless »

The skinheads wanted to make the PNW its own white country called "Vinland", which I think is a reference to what the Vikings called the Americas when they came here.

The reason we are not a liberal Utopia is because we are a red state. We are only blue because two or three blue counties are extremely populous. Eastern Washington sometimes grumbles about splitting off. Not sure how it works in Oregon. But Idaho is also "North Western". We may not be liberal, but I know we are less racist these days than the Mid West or South West. Its perfectly acceptable in some circles to talk about how the white man brought civilization and all these good things to the Native Americans in the Dakotas.


Also sorry to go off topic, but I also am a North Westerner and a Cascadian first and an American second (and, despite my Viking heritage, a Vinlander never).


At least we do not cry about a little rain like all these Californians, for some reason saying how much better it is down there even though here they are in the heartland of hipsterdom.

As per Buddhism in the PNW as a staging area, we exemplify the spirit of "0 fecks given", nobody younger than 50 will give you crap about being a Buddhist here. at the same time, its not catching on in droves, I again would submit Hawai'i as the most likely staging ground. Probably the most genetically and culturally diverse spot on the planet too. Nani loa 'o Hawai'i.
"Keep The Gods Out Of It. Swear On Your Heads. Which I Will Take If You Break Your Vow."- Geralt of Rivia
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Re: Question about current SGI Gohonzon

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Nichirenista; I'd say it's your geographical location that's the problem. I did grow up in NYC a buddhist paradise and experienced the Jodo Shinshu Church where the older members didn't want any part of non-Japanese, but due to my own Jewish background I understood (Jewish temple members weren't keen on converts back then the '90 but that has changed) it was their history, their refuge, their place so I didn't take it personally. The Shinshu establishment had their crisis in the '90's ( temples with aging to nil membership) and did a great job in coming back. This is obviously Nichiren Shu's problem now.

Anyway I lived in Ireland in the country, which I thought was a true wilderness, but I found out later it was filled with SGI members. I corresponded with a Nshu priest in London who very kindly visited me and sent me dharma talks, I thought I was very fortunate.I also corresponded with an Italian priest of HBS in Italy.

Now I live in the US South: North Carolina which is a Buddhist wonderland. I mean it; we have SGI locally, a NShoshu local group that drives up to the DC temple, Nshu temple in Charlotte, an HBS member in Charlotte that the West Coast priest visits. On top of that there is Fo Guang Shan, Rinzai and Soto Zen, Won Buddhism, varieties of TB, Vipassana locally, and Burmese and Thai and Vietnamese temples. There is tons of Asian immigration in the South and frankly it's fab.

Being indy is hard, you have to rely on yourself or actively find teachers. Maybe if you visit a temple yearly that you like and correspond with, that might give you the grounding that you might want. I don't know.if you wish I do know an anglo HBS priest who is on the Oregon-Washington border, just pm me if you like.
gassho
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Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/
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Re: Question about current SGI Gohonzon

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Thank you everyone for the responses. It's all very interesting. I believe Queequeg's point is still a valid one for me, though: that I am out in the wilderness. Even when I was attending a Nichiren temple regularly, I still felt out in the wilderness -- because I was one of the few ones taking the religious aspect seriously. For most others, it was a Sunday brunch. And I feel that, overall, I am out in the wilderness as a Nichiren Buddhist.

Yes, there are many Buddhists in my area -- but Tibetan and Zen. Nichiren Buddhism is maligned, with some even saying it isn't Buddhism at all. I was actually thinking of starting a thread about why Nichiren Buddhism is so marginalized. I just bought the latest issue of BuddhaDharma because the cover story asks, "Why do Buddhists pray?" There are articles by Tibetan, Zen, and Jodo Shinshu teachers -- one of them being from the local temple I referred to earlier, the one that was picketed by Christians when it opened. But no mention of Nichiren Buddhism, despite the fact that our practice is centered on chanting, which is prayer after all -- and we have a very strong sense of "who" we're praying to. I wasn't surprised Nichiren Buddhism was absent from the issue, as I hadn't expected it to be included.
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Re: Question about current SGI Gohonzon

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nichirenista wrote:Yes, there are many Buddhists in my area -- but Tibetan and Zen. Nichiren Buddhism is maligned, with some even saying it isn't Buddhism at all.
So, you weren't invited to the party. :shrug:

One part of the problem is, many Nichiren Buddhists have no idea about what they are doing. "Here. Chant this and everything will be alright."

Another part of the problem is, many Buddhists have no idea about what they are doing. "Here. [insert practice here] and everything will be alright."

Does Stephen Hawkins stop doing what he does because a sassy third grader doesn't understand, for instance, the nullification of information beyond the event horizon? If he has the interest and patience, and the kid has the capacity, he might tutor the kid. But some people just don't have what it takes, so you leave them to views and devices that tend them to the best outcomes, for them, and by extension, for all of us. That's been the Buddhist strategy since the start. The only question is at what point do you disrupt the complacency this approach tends to?
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Question about current SGI Gohonzon

Post by nichirenista »

What is it that you think most Nichiren Buddhists should know about their practice that they don't know?
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Queequeg
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Re: Question about current SGI Gohonzon

Post by Queequeg »

I think your question is putting the proverbial cart before the proverbial horse.

The Digha Nikaya opens with the Brahmajala Sutta in which the Buddha doesn't actually teach dharma in an affirmative sense, but rather critiques the thoughts of people who don't "get it." First he refers to people caught in the toil of day to day survival and that even though they praise the Tathagata, such praise is "trifling", suggesting that they have no idea the actual worth of the Tathagata. Its not a bad thing, but even these positive views toward the Buddha should be understood for what they are: off the mark. He then expounds on the 62 wrong views held by various metaphysicians, philosophers and holy men. Dr. Walshe translates the subtitle of the text as "What the teaching is not".

If you consider it, this makes sense. How do you set about fixing something if you don't know what's wrong. It is helpful to first understand the landscape for what it is before proceeding, right?

When you encounter the average Nichiren Buddhist in the US, how do they describe the purpose and substance of their practice?

Overwhelmingly, these are SGI or former SGI members who offer some variation of, "By chanting, you can achieve absolute happiness and realize your full potential as a human being!" Is that wrong? Maybe, maybe not. But that statement is so vague it can mean almost anything. Having almost any meaning pretty much amounts to being practically speaking, meaningless; a platitude. Granted, people base their lives on platitudes all the time, and so long as the platitude tends to good behavior its better than living by a bad one or just living hand to mouth, but it doesn't take much reflection to realize how "trifling" a life based on even positive platitudes can be. Stuart Smalley If that's enough for (the proverbial) you, congratulations. Carry on.

Bringing this back to the previous posts about being left out of the Buddhists' tea party, the kind of platitudes that SGI teaches Buddhism in is not conducive to relating to other Buddhists. If you don't share a language, there is no communication, and even if you're ultimately talking about the same stuff, neither side will ever know. That's setting aside the fact that SGI platitudes have tended to let Nichiren Buddhism morph into a Prosperity Dharma which will be incompatible with most Western Buddhists who tend to discount material benefits in favor of idealistic interpretations of Dharma.

Anyway, back to your questions, for those that the platitudes are not enough, what do? Where do you start?

Maybe you consider, if I am going to make this practice such a major part of my life, I ought to look into the guy who first recommended chanting this phrase and find out why he was willing to endure numerous persecutions and threats to his life for this. Maybe you start with Nichiren's Five or Ten major writings. Maybe you read the Lotus Sutra.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Question about current SGI Gohonzon

Post by Myoho-Nameless »

Queequeg wrote: Overwhelmingly, these are SGI or former SGI members who offer some variation of, "By chanting, you can achieve absolute happiness and realize your full potential as a human being!" Is that wrong? Maybe, maybe not.
If the Buddha teaches suffering and the emancipation thereof, how far off could that be? Specifically our school teaches that happiness and fulfillment can be found in this lifetime, right here, right now. or is there a bigger picture?
"Keep The Gods Out Of It. Swear On Your Heads. Which I Will Take If You Break Your Vow."- Geralt of Rivia
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Re: Question about current SGI Gohonzon

Post by nichirenista »

Queequeg wrote:Overwhelmingly, these are SGI or former SGI members who offer some variation of, "By chanting, you can achieve absolute happiness and realize your full potential as a human being!" Is that wrong? Maybe, maybe not. But that statement is so vague it can mean almost anything. Having almost any meaning pretty much amounts to being practically speaking, meaningless; a platitude. Granted, people base their lives on platitudes all the time, and so long as the platitude tends to good behavior its better than living by a bad one or just living hand to mouth, but it doesn't take much reflection to realize how "trifling" a life based on even positive platitudes can be. Stuart Smalley If that's enough for (the proverbial) you, congratulations. Carry on.
I do think that this is perhaps the main reason that some American Buddhists don't consider Nichiren Buddhism to be Buddhism. American Buddhists tend to believe that Buddhism is about overcoming desires, and yet Nichiren Buddhism has been presented in the US as a means of achieving desires.

It's extremely controversial to some people to point out to them that chanting/praying for worldly aims is a part of all Buddhist practices. So, in my opinion, it's not that Nichiren Buddhism contains something that other Buddhist paths don't, but that Nichiren Buddhism (probably, more specifically, SGI), doesn't go to pains to hide something the other American Buddhists hide about their own traditions.

Several articles come to mind, which have already been posted here. But I suppose no harm is done....

This is a series of great articles. I found it interesting that in introducing these articles, the author refers to some forms of Buddhism that "don't seem like Buddhism at all...." That's a polite way of saying that Nichiren Buddhism doesn't seem like Buddhism to some in the Vipassana and Tibetan schools. http://www.tricycle.com/buddhist-tradit ... n-buddhism" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The other article, of course, is this one. http://www.sgi-usa.org/newsandevents/ne ... icycle.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I think there is a major economic issue here that maybe is the elephant in the room.
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