Question about current SGI Gohonzon

[Queequeg]

Overwhelmingly, these are SGI or former SGI members who offer some variation of, "By chanting, you can achieve absolute happiness and realize your full potential as a human being!" Is that wrong? Maybe, maybe not.

If the Buddha teaches suffering and the emancipation thereof, how far off could that be? Specifically our school teaches that happiness and fulfillment can be found in this lifetime, right here, right now. or is there a bigger picture?

Does SGI's "absolute happiness" = "Buddha's teaching on suffering and the emancipation thereof"? I'm not sure. I think "absolute happiness" is intentionally vague so that people can project whatever they want onto it; there is a technical meaning to it - but not many people are that well studied in SGI and understand it. Instead, its pretty much left as a Rorschach test. I knew a guy who chanted for a big coke score. He ended up getting robbed at gun point which he interpreted as a wake-up call. Can't argue with that narrative. But was the epiphany he had looking down the barrel of a stick-up kid's gun Buddhist enlightenment? I suppose in a very, very broad sense it was a sort of 'awakening'.

As for the bigger picture, I think there is - conventionally at least, there still is the notion of rebirth; how that is affected by the teaching that life and death are non-arising is good question as the conventional notion of happiness and fulfillment in this lifetime loses meaning.

A lot of this stuff gets cleared up when we get away from the slogans like "absolute happiness in this life" and start delving into the actual Buddhist teachings that underlie the slogans. These teachings have been debated and vetted for centuries. The fact that the benefit of reducing these subtle and profound teachings to pithy sound bites accessible by ordinary people with zero Buddhist background are quickly exhausted is clear. When you come to the end of the utility of the slogan, you have a choice - find out what underlies the slogan or fill in the blanks with speculation. I think its unfair to single out SGI members, because I think its a human tendency, but once most people reach the end of what they know, they start trying to fill in the blanks with speculation and that goes all kinds of wrong. Some people hit the books and research.

Look, if the platitudes work, carry on. If you need more, then there is no alternative to slogging through and putting in your 10,000 hours.

[Queequeg]

Overwhelmingly, these are SGI or former SGI members who offer some variation of, "By chanting, you can achieve absolute happiness and realize your full potential as a human being!" Is that wrong? Maybe, maybe not. But that statement is so vague it can mean almost anything. Having almost any meaning pretty much amounts to being practically speaking, meaningless; a platitude. Granted, people base their lives on platitudes all the time, and so long as the platitude tends to good behavior its better than living by a bad one or just living hand to mouth, but it doesn't take much reflection to realize how "trifling" a life based on even positive platitudes can be. Stuart Smalley If that's enough for (the proverbial) you, congratulations. Carry on.

I do think that this is perhaps the main reason that some American Buddhists don't consider Nichiren Buddhism to be Buddhism. American Buddhists tend to believe that Buddhism is about overcoming desires, and yet Nichiren Buddhism has been presented in the US as a means of achieving desires.

It's extremely controversial to some people to point out to them that chanting/praying for worldly aims is a part of all Buddhist practices. So, in my opinion, it's not that Nichiren Buddhism contains something that other Buddhist paths don't, but that Nichiren Buddhism (probably, more specifically, SGI), doesn't go to pains to hide something the other American Buddhists hide about their own traditions.

Notwithstanding the Reform Buddhism that disaffected American Jews and Christians have turned to, there is a problem when Buddhism is presented as a Prosperity Gospel the way it sometimes is in groups like SGI.

Traditionally, material benefits were promised to lay persons, but there is an attendant expectation that at least some of the wealth would be directed to support the Sangha and promote the Dharma. Also, the promise is premised on being the reward for the observation of some basic norms of conduct. I haven't looked in a while, but there's nothing especially Buddhist about the prescribed norms except the part about generosity to the Sangha. Its basic "middle class" values - be honest and hard working; don't drink; don't chase sex; be fair; be generous. Aside from the exotic vehicle, the promotion of these values sounds like exhortation to the Protestant Work Ethic.

Also, these material benefits are traditionally contextualized as rather minor achievements in the scheme of things. Sure, you need basic material support to live and be comfortable, but anything beyond is excess. Any further energy is best applied to pursuit of awakening. When Prosperity Dharma eclipses the real point of Buddhist practice, you're doing it wrong.

I think there is a major economic issue here that maybe is the elephant in the room.

This is true. But when you're promoting material benefits, you need to be ready to contextualize it and encourage transcendence when the material needs are sated.

[DGA]

Look, if the platitudes work, carry on. If you need more, then there is no alternative to slogging through and putting in your 10,000 hours.

[Myoho-Nameless]

Does SGI's "absolute happiness" = "Buddha's teaching on suffering and the emancipation thereof"? I'm not sure. I think "absolute happiness" is intentionally vague so that people can project whatever they want onto it

Maybe thats a good thing. Are we all really coming to Buddhism for the same reasons? Do we all manifest awakening in the exact same way?

there still is the notion of rebirth; how that is affected by the teaching that life and death are non-arising is good question as the conventional notion of happiness and fulfillment in this lifetime loses meaning.

Eh....thats not how I feel. I have a vague sense of looking forward to vacationing on the moons of Jupiter in future lifetimes, but I suppose I have a pagan emphasis on the life happening now. But I don't think thats what they mean when they say it.

What I think the SGI means by "happiness in the here and the now" is in contrast to the idea of waiting until after you are dead to be happy, to go to heaven or to the Pure Land. Rather than "only worry about the here and the now". I don't think the intention there is to ignore the fact that we create our futures in one form or another. You DON'T have to wait, go anywhere, wear anything, be someone else.....

[nichirenista]

Fascinating (unfortunate) story about the man chanting for coke. Wow. And that slogan about "absolute happiness" has always struck me as odd. Another SGI slogan has something to do with achieving "indestructible happiness." Something like that. Didn't sound very Buddhist.

About the economic issue. There was an article in Shambala Sun a while ago about the struggles of practicing Buddhism on minimum wage. Most American Buddhists are solidly middle-class, and their practice is augmented by flying all over the country and even world to attend expensive retreats and seminars.

This is one reason I love this article about SGI, and it is one reason I like SGI, despite the fact that I'm not a member. It discusses the economic issue (and the racial issue) that gets ignored in most other Buddhist organizations.
http://www.sgi-usa.org/newsandevents/ne ... icycle.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's easy to look down on a practice that encourages its members to chant for worldly aims -- all the while your own worldly necessities are assured.

[Myoho-Nameless]

It sort of sounds like some people just don't like to turn away from more traditional wordings used by Buddhist institutions, and are annoyed with new spins. Is annutarasamyaksambhodi any better? "emancipation"? "liberation"? "extinction"?

these are better somehow? Then why did the SGI have to market themselves differently, and after doing so, be somewhat successful?

Another SGI slogan has something to do with achieving "indestructible happiness." Something like that. Didn't sound very Buddhist.

I think its a form of smiling stoicism, not being blown around by the 8 winds etc, "indestructible". not dependent on external circumstances. Sounds pretty "Buddhist" to me. I haven't achieved such a state as of typing this, and perhaps its wishful thinking. but as a theory its easier to grasp than aforementioned and as of yet undefined bigger picture.

Oh I am sure there is a bigger picture, its just not my priority, or if it is I am being guided to it by expedient means. Fine by me. In the meantime I have on and off anxiety and depression to think about.

[nichirenista]

I'm certainly not condemning these slogans. I'm just saying that with these slogans in mind, I can understand why some people may believe SGI isn't Buddhism. These aren't terms usually used in Buddhism. To my understanding, Buddhism is in part about accepting that things change, that we die, etc. My thought on this is that a slogan like "indestructible happiness" is implying that the individual won't change and even eventually die. On another level, I suppose I had thought that part of the Buddhist practice was about "rising above" our emotional states, not remaining with one state (happiness) for all eternity.

I'm not condemning these slogans. Who am I to condemn anyone? I'm just saying they sound like the language of the Human Potential movement rather than Buddhism.

Would you believe I just got done listening to Lucinda Bassett's DVD/Audio program "Attacking Anxiety and Depression"? lol I almost ended up on one of her infomercials. I'm not kidding. Chanting helps with this. But I can't say chanting brings me "happiness." Rather, it brings me "peace."

[Myoho-Nameless]

Yeah I hear yah....upon first encounter with this verbiage ("one with universal law" was how it was first given to me, not from an SGI source but a person who is a former member) I too was sort of thrown off...."verily this is strange, the Mormons of Buddhism these folk are.....". but the practice warmed up to me, and the new agey sounding goals do not strike me as bad. I don't use them myself, I think about it in terms of the 4 goals of Buddhist practice.

it works for some people, and to me it seems like the difference between the McDonald's slogans "we love to see you smile" and "badabapbaba i'm lovin' it!"

who in seven hells wants "what its REALLY about" in this day and age at least when first meeting the Dharma? the old slogans don't work as well. I am not saying we should reject the old ways, I think we should layer them and only reject what does not work or what leads to bad things.

[nichirenista]

Thanks for the response.

I don't mean to get off-track here. This discussion about SGI slogans seems to have grown out of my initial statement that Nichiren Buddhism has been accused by some of not really being Buddhism. This seems to have led to an analysis of the underlying causes of the perceptions some have that Nichiren Buddhism isn't really Buddhism. This led to analysis of the SGI slogans, which as you yourself admit are not traditional Buddhist slogans….

So, I'm not condemning SGI. I mean, I started off this thread by mentioning that I bought an SGI Gohonzon, and one reason I wanted an SGI Gohonzon is because I admire certain things about them.

One of the paradoxes here is that while on one hand SGI is accused of not really being Buddhism (many people believing that SGI is the sum-total of Nichiren Buddhism), SGI is also apparently the largest Buddhist organization in the world. In other words, the slogans may not be that of traditional Buddhism -- but apparently they're working!

[rory]

I had tried varioius traditional Buddhist schools: Zen, Pure Land, various Tibetan sects etc and read many good books, scholarly and devotional on Buddhism, even Jodo Shinshu which was rare to find in those days. I had a very low opinion of Nichiren Buddhism, I thought it wasn't 'real' Buddhism, just like back in the '90s Pure Land wasn't considered 'real' Buddhism. Of course once I started reading Pure Land classic books I realized just how wrong I was and once I found Jaquie Stone's books I also realized just how wrong I was about Nichiren Buddhism. Nichiren Buddhism has more respectability but most who follow Zen, Tibetan etc are quite ignorant of Tendai philosophy, so they simply have no clue. And there aren't yet enough Nichiren Buddhists who are familiar with Tendai and Nichiren to make elegant and forceful arguments in rebuttal.

I think the issue is entirely class-based; white upper middle class people like Zen, Vipassana and Tibetan Buddhism, which is rather austere, world denying and requires money. TB is fashionable as liberals are pro- Tibet. All the Buddhist magazines appeal to that audience. Nichiren Buddhism embraces Tiantai Philosophy which isn't world-denying at all. SGI popularized Nichiren Buddhism, made it accessible, did street shakubuku in non-white neighborhoods and it appealed to those who wanted to better their lives. I think that's great....I think it's wonderful people all over the world are chanting NMRK. Who are famous Nichiren Buddhists in the West: Tina Turner, Herbie Hancock...

So why does it have a bad reputation? Ignorance, snobbishness and pretty much the arrogance of the white upper class.
gassho
Rory

[nichirenista]

Um. Wow. Thank you for saying that. I didn't have the courage. lol

Herbie Hancock talking about his practice:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xSFMkJQKigk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tina Turner talking about hers:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6XP-f7wPM0A" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fs6z9VejQIk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=89OJLEnsHuM" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I don't "care" about race per se. And, being that I'm white (well, Italian American), I don't have any problem with white people. But the fact remains that that I had a very multi-cultural background (grew up in a black neighborhood), and therefore the average SGI meeting, well, looks like home … or, looks like my upbringing. I just have little in common with middle-class white Protestants. Or, maybe it's not that I have little in common with them, but that I've had little interaction with them. Just different worlds.

Oh, how I hate to bring up this point, but I think one reason both Nichiren and Pure Land Buddhism have been derided as "not really Buddhism" is because they are "ethnic Buddhism." That is to suggest, unless something is arranged around the white American middle-class, it isn't "real." I hate to put it that way. But that's my gut instinct on this matter….

[illarraza]

"the old slogans don't work as well."?? Then I think SGI should drop, "SGI new and improved". That certainly is getting old.

Now, you also say, "I am not saying we should reject the old ways, I think we should layer them and only reject what does not work or what leads to bad things." You have proven QQ's and other's point about dumbing down the dharma. "What leads to bad things", like all of SGI's slogans, as QQ pointed out, can mean anything to anyone. But if we really study the SGI teachings, SGI considers Nichiren's forceful practice of the exclusive faith and practice of the Lotus Sutra, as a bad thing. SGI interfaith practice is antithentical to the Nichiren faith. SGI rejects anything Nichiren that doesn't fit into Ikeda's worldview. Again, what you practice is Ikedaism, not Nichiren's Lotus Sutra Buddhism. Now, if you mean that Nichiren's faith and practice doesn't contribute to SGI's wide appeal and SGI's coffers, that would be quite true. But to say that Nichiren's exclusive faith and forceful practices doesn't lead to Buddhahood or emancipation or "absolute happiness", you are a slanderer of the Dharma, either by ignorance or by intention.

Illarraza

[Myoho-Nameless]

Illarraza, bro, you clearly haven't the foggiest notion as to what this conversation is about. You only ever seem to have one thing on your mind, and it clouds everything you ever say. Are you really such a one dimensional person?

We are talking about marketing the Dharma in the modern age. If you want the dharma to calcify and die, by all means continue as you were. Personally I am satisfied that, like science, the Dharma advances one funeral at a time.

I do not belong to the SGI, I could never given my interest in men's issues and what I see as the SGI's gynocentric attitude, but thats a whole other topic.

[Queequeg]

It sort of sounds like some people just don't like to turn away from more traditional wordings used by Buddhist institutions, and are annoyed with new spins. Is annutarasamyaksambhodi any better? "emancipation"? "liberation"? "extinction"?

these are better somehow? Then why did the SGI have to market themselves differently, and after doing so, be somewhat successful?

I think lots of people are partial to their own particular vocabulary. I suspect that the Scotland independence referendum had at least something to do with attachment to Scottish English. People in SGI can be pretty aggressive in their attachment to their vocabulary and recoil in horror at Sanskrit or even Japanese terms.

I don't think the SGI-USA vocabulary is particularly well thought out. I think that SGI has been successful more because 1) the regular practice of chanting Daimoku does have positive effects, even when done for every reason but the "correct" one; and 2) the sincerity and enthusiasm of the little Japanese ladies and gentlemen who first started teaching Americans about NMRK back in the 1960's and 70's. To an extent, the accessible language I'm sure has helped, but we should be clear about how a lot of this vocabulary came about.

The first NSA (SGI-USA predecessor) people who were teaching this NMRK were the Japanese wives of US servicemen, Japanese salesmen sent over to sell cameras and cars by day (by their employers) and to sell NMRK by night (by Soka Gakkai), and various adventurous souls who had left Japan to see the world. As a whole, they had more pluck and enthusiasm than English language skills. When they were trying to explain the teaching to people and didn't have the English language ability, what did they do? They opened up their dog eared Japanese-English dictionary. Anyone with experience trying to speak a foreign language with a dictionary knows how difficult and comical it can be. This pretty much captures it:

phpBB [video]

More than a lot of the standard SGI language started like that.

[Myoho-Nameless]

Given what I know about us Americans especially during the 60s and 70s, I doubt that your explanation for their success, though informed, is the whole picture. To say that the verbiage itself had no effect, well neither of us can prove it one way or the other, but sounds unreasonable. When I came out of a world religions class years ago, I know that many of my fellow students walked away thinking Buddhism is complete crap. And I think the SGI's vocabulary works fine for some people, and thats ok.

Let the market decide, it always does.

or we can just be content that people come to Buddhism for different reasons.

and hopefully they come to Nichiren's writings, he does a good job in the marketing department. A lack of study though, is another frequent criticism of the SGI. and may or may not compound any issues surrounding wording.

[rory]

Given what I know about us Americans especially during the 60s and 70s, I doubt that your explanation for their success, though informed, is the whole picture. To say that the verbiage itself had no effect, well neither of us can prove it one way or the other, but sounds unreasonable. When I came out of a world religions class years ago, I know that many of my fellow students walked away thinking Buddhism is complete crap. And I think the SGI's vocabulary works fine for some people, and thats ok.

Let the market decide, it always does.

or we can just be content that people come to Buddhism for different reasons.

and hopefully they come to Nichiren's writings, he does a good job in the marketing department. A lack of study though, is another frequent criticism of the SGI. and may or may not compound any issues surrounding wording.

First thank you for your kind words Myoho in the TB discussion, it is much appreciated... Hmm as someone who's met Nichiren Buddhism in a reverse direction: for 'mainstream' to NB, I'd say that yes initially SGI-speak is off-putting as 'life condition' (do they mean karma?) etc, but upon reflection why is it bad if it gets the idea across? I'm just being a snob. I remember reading 'Samsara is Nirvana' and thinking Ha! Nichirenism, then found it is an orthodox statement by Zhiyi. I realized that i was the ignorant one. Is "earthly desires are enlightenment' wrong? No, orthodox but shocking to non-Tendai Buddhists.

I
Nichirenista, thanks for posting those links. I missed that issue of Trike and the subsequent one as I was living in Ireland then.

gassho
rory

[nichirenista]

I do not belong to the SGI, I could never given my interest in men's issues and what I see as the SGI's gynocentric attitude, but thats a whole other topic.

I must say, that's a complaint I'd never heard about SGI before. Care to elaborate? Generally speaking, religion -- though usually founded around males (ahem, Buddha, Nichiren) -- usually has more female practitioners than male. I've even heard the statement, "Religion is for women." And what do you mean you are interested in issues regarding men's concerns? Message me privately if you prefer.

[nichirenista]

Thank you for clarifying this. This is fascinating. Now that I think about it, doesn't Japan in general (at least the business world) have a very "positive" and "optimistic" tone? I've read that the corporate attitude in Japan is sort of Human Potential rhetoric pushed to an extreme. Actually, I think the term I read was "mandatory enthusiasm."

But why do SGI members recoil at Sanskrit and Japanese terms? This is interesting to me, because I recall an article about the SGI university in Southern California that said that it's interesting to see a Buddhist school that has statues of US presidents, but none of Buddha. SGI can be such an enigma.

It sort of sounds like some people just don't like to turn away from more traditional wordings used by Buddhist institutions, and are annoyed with new spins. Is annutarasamyaksambhodi any better? "emancipation"? "liberation"? "extinction"?

these are better somehow? Then why did the SGI have to market themselves differently, and after doing so, be somewhat successful?

I think lots of people are partial to their own particular vocabulary. I suspect that the Scotland independence referendum had at least something to do with attachment to Scottish English. People in SGI can be pretty aggressive in their attachment to their vocabulary and recoil in horror at Sanskrit or even Japanese terms.

I don't think the SGI-USA vocabulary is particularly well thought out. I think that SGI has been successful more because 1) the regular practice of chanting Daimoku does have positive effects, even when done for every reason but the "correct" one; and 2) the sincerity and enthusiasm of the little Japanese ladies and gentlemen who first started teaching Americans about NMRK back in the 1960's and 70's. To an extent, the accessible language I'm sure has helped, but we should be clear about how a lot of this vocabulary came about.

The first NSA (SGI-USA predecessor) people who were teaching this NMRK were the Japanese wives of US servicemen, Japanese salesmen sent over to sell cameras and cars by day (by their employers) and to sell NMRK by night (by Soka Gakkai), and various adventurous souls who had left Japan to see the world. As a whole, they had more pluck and enthusiasm than English language skills. When they were trying to explain the teaching to people and didn't have the English language ability, what did they do? They opened up their dog eared Japanese-English dictionary. Anyone with experience trying to speak a foreign language with a dictionary knows how difficult and comical it can be. This pretty much captures it:

phpBB [video]

More than a lot of the standard SGI language started like that.

[Queequeg]

MN, I'm not saying the accessible language doesn't matter, but I am saying the practice and disposition of its teachers was more critical. The problem I'm pointing to though is that the plain language Buddhism, as discussed earlier in the thread, tends to create as many problems as it solves. I was illustrating how the plain language was developed haphazardly.

The Buddhism the Buddha taught appears to have been spoken in the ordinary dialect of the day. What happened though is that his words were crystalized and language evolved. Eventually, the Buddhas language became esoteric. Even more so when Buddhism was transmitted to civilizations with very different languages.

I'm not arguing against explaining dharma in plain language. However, when the language is sloppy and the actual meaning is not conveyed with the words, its open to interpretation and peoples understanding meanders into wrong view. Case in point, Rory brought up 'earthly desires are enlightenment'. Its doesn't mean 'indulge your desires because that's enlightenment' that many think it means.

Plain language is fine and acceptable as far as I'm concerned, but we need to put some thought into it and take the time to convey what it means. SGI gives some good examples. It also shows us what not to do with plenty of examples.

[Myoho-Nameless]

I wouldn't exactly call it "plain language", it being either the SGI's choice of words vs more "traditional" ones.....both can be taken as....."far out".

I'm not arguing against explaining dharma in plain language. However, when the language is sloppy and the actual meaning is not conveyed with the words, its open to interpretation and peoples understanding meanders into wrong view.

There we go. I think I get your view on the matter now. I have been wanting to see this topic spoken of. I don't think you are wrong here, but I think people can be lead to wrong views even with the "actual meaning" spelled out more the "correct" way as well. And the SGI's methods might actually work for some people.

Personally, I leave shakabuku to the experts.