References to non-Buddhist gods and deities

[Jechan]

南無妙法蓮華経
Namu Myoho Renge Kyo
Hi all,
In the writings of Nichiren Shonin I have come across some references to non buddhist gods and deities such as the Sun God, Hachiman, gods of the Ocean and Earth, etc. He pays reverence to these gods and even thanks them. But then refutes the belief and worship of such gods of Shinto or other popular beleifs as the practices of heretics.
Why would he revere and thank such objects of heretical worship in one line then denounce them in another?
南無妙法蓮華経
Namu Myoho Renge Kyo

[Masaru]

In the writings of Nichiren Shonin I have come across some references to non buddhist gods and deities such as the Sun God, Hachiman, gods of the Ocean and Earth, etc. He pays reverence to these gods and even thanks them. But then refutes the belief and worship of such gods of Shinto or other popular beleifs as the practices of heretics.
Why would he revere and thank such objects of heretical worship in one line then denounce them in another?

This is because Nichiren is thanking those beings for their actions as agents of the Buddha and upholders of the Lotus Sutra, not as beings inherently worthy of reverence. This is something like the way a Christian might pray to a specific angel though such an action is considered part of their worship of, and sole devotion to, God. It would be heretical to a Christian to revere any entity as a force not under the authority of God, and likewise all divine beings are realized by us to simply be adherents to, and agents of, the True Law.

[Hickory Mountain]

This is something like the way a Christian might pray to a specific angel though such an action is considered part of their worship of, and sole devotion to, God. It would be heretical to a Christian to revere any entity as a force not under the authority of God, and likewise all divine beings are realized by us to simply be adherents to, and agents of, the True Law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latria#Lat ... Hyperdulia" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm not sure if this concept has any precedence in Nichiren Buddhism, but it seems like an interesting framework from which to explore the question.

[Queequeg]

南無妙法蓮華経
Namu Myoho Renge Kyo
Hi all,
In the writings of Nichiren Shonin I have come across some references to non buddhist gods and deities such as the Sun God, Hachiman, gods of the Ocean and Earth, etc. He pays reverence to these gods and even thanks them. But then refutes the belief and worship of such gods of Shinto or other popular beleifs as the practices of heretics.
Why would he revere and thank such objects of heretical worship in one line then denounce them in another?
南無妙法蓮華経
Namu Myoho Renge Kyo

Masaru pretty much answered this. I'll add this to try and put it into the overall architecture of Nichiren's teachings.

All phenomena are manifestations of NMRK. That means, everything, from blue whales and brontasauri, to microbes and viruses, even things that are generally thought of as insentient like plants, rocks, or not generally perceived as discrete beings, like the biosphere, the planets, the solar system, the universe, etc., are entities of NMRK.

All these beings suffer, in the Buddhist technical sense of that word, when ignorance of their true nature as entities of NMRK prevails. When these beings are awakened to NMRK, Buddhahood prevails.

When applied to the corpus of Buddhist teachings, teachings that are not framed within NMRK are not True teachings, and their practice leads to suffering for this simple fact - without NMRK, they do not connect to the True Aspect. When opened through NMRK, these teachings become entities of NMRK. This does not mean that everything is a practice of NMRK, but everything done as a practice of NMRK is NMRK.

All beings, whether "Buddhist" or not, are subject to this reality. All the beings that are awakened to NMRK aid and protect others who are likewise awakened to NMRK, and protect NMRK from those who act against it.

By the time of Nichiren, the native kami of Japan were understood to have been converted to Buddhism, and thereby became protectors of Buddhism. Just as Brahma, Indra, Agni, Shiva, etc., gods of the Indian pantheon had been converted to Buddhism and were therefore protectors of Buddhism. However, if you were to worship Brahma, for instance, attributing to him ultimacy, you will have turned your back on NMRK and thereby come to deny the True Aspect of reality, and bring about your own suffering. Not only would Brahma not hear your supplication, but, being a protector of Buddhism, he would be compelled to counter you to the extent that you harm the Dharma. At the same time, if you call on Brahma to aid you in the practice of NMRK, he would be compelled to come to your aid.

Those Abrahamic religion adherents might not know it, but Jehovah worships NMRK and protects those who practice it. Of course, that also goes for Mary and Jesus, etc. Even Satan. Of course, Zeus/Jupiter, Apollo/Mars, etc., them too.

[Myoho-Nameless]

Those Abrahamic religion adherents might not know it, but Jehovah worships NMRK and protects those who practice it. Of course, that also goes for Mary and Jesus, etc. Even Satan. Of course, Zeus/Jupiter, Apollo/Mars, etc., them too.

Thats not smug or anything.......




curious discussion.

[nichirenista]

Funny, but I was just reading an article about "Yahweh," of which the name "Jehovah" is a corruption. (A sister of mine is a Jehovah's Witness who sometime alternates between using the name "Jehovah" and "Yahweh.") As someone who was raised Catholic, it was a shock to me to learn that "Yahweh" originated as one god within a much larger pantheon -- which predates Judaism. I had thought that the Jews came up with an entirely abstract concept of God and had expressed him in four Hebrew letters (the Tetragrammaton) which could not be pronounced, and this concept was then transferred to the Christians and Muslims. According to Wikipedia, Yahweh is the war god of an ancient people -- which may perhaps explain why the Abrahamic religions fight so much. And his name was pronounceable, but later became forbidden to utter. But I digress…. What I'm trying to get around to saying is that it's nice to learn that Yahweh/Jehovah worships NMRK.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Your comments about "satan" worshipping NMRK bring me to a question I've been meaning to ask for some time, but I think was too scared to ask: Why is Mara on the Gohonzon? Due to my background in Catholicism, the only equivalent I have in my mind to Mara is satan, and there is no way in hell (no pun intended) that a Christian of any denomination would have satan on ANY religious object. I was therefore shocked to learn that Mara is on the Gohonzon

Thanks.

[Jechan]

Namu Myoho Renge Kyo
Thanks all for the insightful and helpful replies

Nichirenista, you raise an interesting point on Mara being depicted on the Gohonzon. Im not well versed at all in matters of the Gohonzon, but just going by what other posters have said maybe because the Gohonzon, the Primordial Object of Worship, contains all that is, was and ever will be, it is only appropriate that Mara be represented as well.
Im sure those further in learning than myself can elaborate?
南無妙法蓮華経！
Namu Myoho Renge Kyo

[Myoho-Nameless]

I recall back on the Nichiren Sangha when the controversial Canadian himself "Dave" expressed dismay at there being a war deity as well on the Gohonzon. Or some of them, I had been under the impression they do not all contain the same figures.


Satan worship is basically self worship, Buddhifying that might be awkward.

[Masaru]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latria#Lat ... Hyperdulia"

I'm not sure if this concept has any precedence in Nichiren Buddhism, but it seems like an interesting framework from which to explore the question.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latria#La ... Hyperdulia
Latria vs. Dulia and Hyperdulia

Latria is sacrificial in character, and may be offered only to God. Catholic and Orthodox Christians offer other degrees of reverence to the Blessed Virgin Mary and to the Saints; these non-sacrificial types of reverence are called hyperdulia and dulia, respectively. In English, dulia is also called veneration.[4] Hyperdulia is essentially a heightened degree of dulia provided only to the Blessed Virgin.[5]

This distinction, written about as early as Augustine of Hippo and St Jerome, was detailed more explicitly by Thomas Aquinas in his Summa Theologiae, A.D. 1270: "Reverence is due to God on account of His Excellence, which is communicated to certain creatures not in equal measure, but according to a measure of proportion; and so the reverence which we pay to God, and which belongs to latria, differs from the reverence which we pay to certain excellent creatures; this belongs to dulia, and we shall speak of it further on (103)";[6] in this next article St. Thomas Aquinas writes: "Wherefore dulia, which pays due service to a human lord, is a distinct virtue from latria, which pays due service to the Lordship of God. It is, moreover, a species of observance, because by observance we honor all those who excel in dignity, while dulia properly speaking is the reverence of servants for their master, dulia being the Greek for servitude".

I was previously unaware of this concept, which appears to be the underlying theory behind the Christian practices that I've seen others partake in. The hierarchy described between latria, hyperdulia, and dulia, does seem loosely similar to what my amateur eyes discern as being described in Nichiren's epistles. In the Gosho numbered 87 by the translations done by SGI and named "On Consecrating an Image of Shakyamuni Buddha Made by Shijō Kingo," Nichiren tells us that the Gods ultimately derive their power from the Buddhist Law:

http://nichiren.info/gosho/ConsecratingImage.htm
Now if we consider what the Buddhist writings have to say, we may note that the Konkomyo Sutra states: "The god of the sun and the god of the moon, because they listen to this sutra, are able to obtain vitality in abundance." And the Saisho-o Sutra states: "Through the power of this sutra king, these luminaries are able to circle around the four continents."

You should understand, therefore, that it is the power of the Buddhist Law that enables the deities of the sun and moon to make their rounds of the four continents. The Konkomyo and Saisho-o sutras are mere expedient teachings leading to the Lotus Sutra. In comparison to the Lotus Sutra, they are like milk in comparison to ghee, or metal in comparison to precious gems. And yet, inferior as these sutras are, they enable the heavenly deities to circle the four continents. How much more power can these deities gain, then, by tasting the sweet ghee of the Lotus Sutra!

Therefore in the Jo chapter of the Lotus Sutra, we find that the deities of the sun and moon are ranged side by side with the god of the stars. And in the Hosshi chapter, it is predicted that the deity of the sun will attain the highest level of enlightenment and be known as the Fire-sustaining Tathagata.

In addition to all this, your late father initiated this worship of the sun deity, and you have succeeded him in the second generation, carrying on these ceremonies over a long period of time. So how could the deity possibly abandon you?

I, Nichiren, have also put my trust in this deity, and in this manner have carried on my struggles in Japan over the past several years. Already I have the feeling that I have achieved victory. Such clear blessings can only be attributed to this deity.

Here, Nichiren also says that he himself looks to the God of the Sun for protection. I don't have time to compile all of the quotes / scriptural citations, but this and other epistles give us the picture that the Gods are subordinate or the Buddhas, are agents of the Buddhist Law, and (as the Sutras themselves tell us,) attain their position through their good karma and practice of the Dharma. What he decries is reverence to the Gods as beings greater than the Buddhist Law. He makes the point in several epistles that the Gods rely upon the Buddhist Law to attain their greatness.

Your comments about "satan" worshipping NMRK bring me to a question I've been meaning to ask for some time, but I think was too scared to ask: Why is Mara on the Gohonzon? Due to my background in Catholicism, the only equivalent I have in my mind to Mara is satan, and there is no way in hell (no pun intended) that a Christian of any denomination would have satan on ANY religious object. I was therefore shocked to learn that Mara is on the Gohonzon

Thanks.

The state of Godhood is actually a position in a hierarchy of karmic merit that includes being born as, for example, a heavenly being, a world leader, the leader of a small nation or province, simply being wealthy, being an average middle class person, living in the ghetto or a third world slum, living in an area torn by constant disease, violence, kidnappings, and rape, being an actual animal, a hungry spirit, a furry, or a hell being. Spiritual progress and self transcendence translate into worldly attainment inasmuch as being able to go beyond ourselves allows us to overcome our limitations.

Tenno Ma, the Heavenly Devil, is actually a being with a kind of mixed karma. This goes for all sentient beings, though there is debate as to whether a perfectly enlightened Buddha still has some inherent evil, and if so, how that is the case. For the Gods though, it's simple enough to say that they are great beings, but they are still far from perfect.

In Mara's case, he's just a kind of stingy bully who enjoys manipulating beings in the rounds of rebirth by exploiting their weaknesses and attempting to ensure they never leave his power. Mara is described as being like an old Brahmin and a farmer, tending his crop. In American culture, perhaps we could liken him to a plantation owner, who seeks to dominate both physically and psychologically so as to increase his personal power while quashing an uprising in others' minds before it ever manifests into action. He is said to represent the selfish human desire to dominate others as well as our own inherent "poisons" or vices that prevent us from taking control of our lives beyond whatever degree we presently have and from overcoming suffering entirely.

It is also said that Mara is not the true Devil, but in fact the Buddha is the true Devil. The reason being that only the Buddha actually understands the nature of sentient beings, their minds and their sufferings to be able, should he wish or need to for some unfathomable reason, to tempt and manipulate them better than the Devil does. It is He who can out-Mara Mara should he choose, and it is only when we understand corruption, dirty tricks, deceitfulness, and the insecurity that drives sadism and the desire to dominate others that, by overcoming it in ourselves, we are able to overcome it when we meet it in others.

Funny, but I was just reading an article about "Yahweh," of which the name "Jehovah" is a corruption. (A sister of mine is a Jehovah's Witness who sometime alternates between using the name "Jehovah" and "Yahweh.") As someone who was raised Catholic, it was a shock to me to learn that "Yahweh" originated as one god within a much larger pantheon -- which predates Judaism. I had thought that the Jews came up with an entirely abstract concept of God and had expressed him in four Hebrew letters (the Tetragrammaton) which could not be pronounced, and this concept was then transferred to the Christians and Muslims. According to Wikipedia, Yahweh is the war god of an ancient people -- which may perhaps explain why the Abrahamic religions fight so much. And his name was pronounceable, but later became forbidden to utter. But I digress…. What I'm trying to get around to saying is that it's nice to learn that Yahweh/Jehovah worships NMRK.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;"

My understanding is that Jehovah, like the Japanese Hachiman or the Aztec Huitzilopochtli who led the Mexica to their promised land, was a Semitic war god who was later conflated with another, less constipated deity known as "El" or "Elohim."

https://www.theosophical.org/publications/1572
In theological and philosophical circles the monotheistic model of deity that has prevailed for so long in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam is being questioned and increasingly discarded as inherently flawed. As a number of eminent authorities have pointed out, the Levitical priests who introduced this great reform did so by stitching together in their revised and heavily edited Yahwist scriptures a composite picture of the Hebrew God, the One God who became known as Yahweh-Elohim (Campbell 96, Schuré 188).

These were names of two divinities with entirely dissimilar and incompatible natures. El or El-Elohim was the ancient High God of the Canaanites and of the northern Israelite tribes of Samaria. Yahweh (Jehovah) was the warrior God or “God of Hosts,” that is, of armies, the God of Judah to the south (Hyatt; Miller and Miller 154).

El-Elohim was also known as Elohe Yisrael, the God of Israel, and as El-Elyon, Abraham’s God and the God of Israel’s fathers. According to some authorities, El’s son El-Shaddai, a god of mountains, also claimed the worship of the Hebrew people, and at some later point Yahweh, a tribal God of the Negev desert, gained the homage of the Judaean tribes and gradually took over the Jerusalem cult from El-Elyon (Miller and Miller 154). Although open to a great deal of disputation among today’s scholars, the amalgamation of these different deities into one Yahwist formula is generally thought to have been the work of the post-Exilic scribes and elders. Whatever the truth of it, to most educated modern eyes the result has been, metaphysically speaking, an infelicitous and unconvincing confusion.

[nichirenista]

"Satanism" in the school of Anton LeVey, etc., is different from "Satan" in the Catholic Church, and all other Christian denominations. At any rate, my question still remains: why is Mara on the Gohonzon? The closest I ever got to an answer was "the Gohonzon represents all that is in the mind" -- which includes Mara. I think the simple truth may be that the Christian/Jewish/Muslim "Satan" is not equivalent to Mara. But due to my religious background, it's still hard to fathom why a negative deity would be on the Gohonzon. Sorry. Don't mean to hijack the thread. [Note: this was posted before I saw Masaru's response above. ]

[Masaru]

Those Abrahamic religion adherents might not know it, but Jehovah worships NMRK and protects those who practice it. Of course, that also goes for Mary and Jesus, etc. Even Satan. Of course, Zeus/Jupiter, Apollo/Mars, etc., them too.

Thats not smug or anything.......

I thought this post was a tone-down from Q's normal levels of smug.

I don't agree on the smugness of this statement, though. What you've quoted actually accords with the Lotus Sutra and the Gosho, including what I quoted earlier. It actually reminds me of an old blog post I made, somewhat along the lines of the post I did here about Avalokiteshvara appearing as an amalgamation of Liberty and the Lady of Guadalupe:

The Lord God was thankful...
DateCreated 3/22/2010 10:54:00 AM
....And the Lord God Jehovah, Lord of Hosts, creator of Heaven and Earth, arose from his throne at the center of the universe, faced the countless suns in the eastern direction, and as He and his entire retinue of angels stood with palms pressed together - even Satan being forced to oblige - all chanted "Nam-myoho-renge-kyo" with reverence and gratitude to the Mystic Law of Causality that birthed them.

And as God prayed with fervent conviction, he renewed his life-span and increased his wisdom so as to secure a peaceful and prosperous reign until the time that the kalpa would end, the universe would collapse once again, and some great soul would find itself moving silently over the waters, reborn... and beseech the light.

[Masaru]

"Satanism" in the school of Anton LeVey, etc., is different from "Satan" in the Catholic Church, and all other Christian denominations. At any rate, my question still remains: why is Mara on the Gohonzon? The closest I ever got to an answer was "the Gohonzon represents all that is in the mind" -- which includes Mara. I think the simple truth may be that the Christian/Jewish/Muslim "Satan" is not equivalent to Mara. But due to my religious background, it's still hard to fathom why a negative deity would be on the Gohonzon. Sorry. Don't mean to hijack the thread. [Note: this was posted before I saw Masaru's response above. ]

It seems as though your education in Catholic doctrine was more detailed than most? Mara and Satan are not equivalent. However, I think that for most people "The Devil" is just the villain or the "bad guy." He's on the Gohonzon to represent how recognizing our own evil can help us overcome it in ourselves and in others.

[nichirenista]

Masaru: Thank you for the interesting response. I don't mean to drive this thread off-topic, so I'll try not to post here in this thread about this topic again. (It's hard, though, because these topics are obviously interrelated.) Needless to say, in Catholic school you aren't taught the history of Yahweh, El, etc. About Mara, I suppose I just need to try to keep in mind that Mara is not the Buddhist equivalent of the Abrahamic satan. It's an easy mistake to make, though.

[Myoho-Nameless]

Q is a smug guy to be sure. But I mean the attitude is hilariously smug. Just like our stance of "if its true, its Buddhism". So Buddhism gets partial credit for all scientific laws and discoveries too.

a hungry spirit, a furry, or a hell being

http://i.imgur.com/M8aFXiK.gif" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Masaru]

Masaru: Thank you for the interesting response. I don't mean to drive this thread off-topic, so I'll try not to post here in this thread about this topic again. (It's hard, though, because these topics are obviously interrelated.) Needless to say, in Catholic school you aren't taught the history of Yahweh, El, etc. About Mara, I suppose I just need to try to keep in mind that Mara is not the Buddhist equivalent of the Abrahamic satan. It's an easy mistake to make, though.

I think there are some views of the Devil as a kind of plantation owner, a super-intelligent, immortal, deceitful and manipulative angel who comes to rob us of joy and of life. There are ingredients with which to build the Buddhist idea from native materials. You have to understand that my mindset is always geared towards how to bring even the least educated person who shows an interest into the fold of Dharma. Preparing the soil for the Dharma is part of my life goal. I realize I may fail miserably at it. I think you can turn the same Devil who hangs around God's throne and makes wagers on Job's life into the Buddhist Heavenly Devil to anyone familiar with that way of thinking.

Still, if you took the view that these supernatural beings actually exist and were given different names by different cultures, (which works for people who are really attached to belief in their existence,) it would seem to a Nichiren Buddhist as though adherents of the Abrahamic traditions often confuse Bramha with the Devil King. Some are slaves to their god, but Buddha comes to wake us up and set us free.

[Masaru]

Q is a smug guy to be sure. But I mean the attitude is hilariously smug. Just like our stance of "if its true, its Buddhism". So Buddhism gets partial credit for all scientific laws and discoveries too.

From what Q has shared about himself in the forum, and from what I know from the times I've called him, Q works in the legal field. In New York, of all places. I've assumed, in most cases, that it comes with the territory.

There's nothing wrong in speaking with the assumption that we are right embedded into our speech. I see that as part of shakabuku. Some people want to "respect all religions" to the point of depreciating our own tradition to do so, and that is foolish. If one doesn't think this is true, why practice?

a hungry spirit, a furry, or a hell being

[/url]http://i.imgur.com/M8aFXiK.gif[/url]

http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/dhammapadatxt1.pdf

Pg 181, for some old time religion, son.

Just kidding. Sort of. I guess we have to work hard to see Tenno Ma at work in ourselves, otherwise we can turn medicine into poison. But poison into medicine is first trust in, and then understanding of, the Buddha's Law..

Also, for those apt to see illaraza's posts as "copypasta," if you've ever heard him read those words out loud, you would realize that they are far from bland quotations. They're lively sermons. For those of us with a background in religious traditions where close adherence to scripture plays a primary role, this "let the text speak for itself" style fits right in. My mother's side is only nominally Catholic and mainly just retained a lot of the superstitious aspects and neuroses, but my father's side of the family is Pentecostal. In some ways they are similar to the Southern Baptists. The form of this kind of preaching style really fits into the practice of these more strict religious traditions that are common where I live.

[nichirenista]

Thanks again.

When I was a little boy in Japan, my sister would sometimes teach me Japanese characters. And I would often ask, "Is that how you write 'a' in Japanese?" My sister would respond, "No! There are no a's! This is an entirely different language."

I think it may be the same with Mara vs satan. It's easy for me to superimpose one over the other, but I'm thinking that they don't really have much in common. It appears to me that Mara is more philosophical and metaphysical than satan in the Catholic Church, or at least from what I was taught. I was taught a very polarized view: God is above in heaven; satan is below in hell. God is good; satan is evil. It was that simple. Sure, there was something about satan having been lucifer at one point, an archangel that fell from grace … but we didn't go too far into that.

But as the personification of pure evil (sort of the Adolph Hitler of the religious/spiritual world), it would be unthinkable for any church to have an image of satan. Well … that's not entirely true; my child's Bible had a drawing of satan tempting Jesus -- but, of course, Jesus won. So, it was ultimately an image of Jesus's triumph. But you will never see satan enshrined in any way in a Catholic Church, as Mara is enshrined as depicted on the Gohonzon.

So, I think I need to get the "Mara = satan" equation out of my head….

[Jechan]

Namu Myoho Renge Kyo, everyone who posted to help answer my question.
The Lotus Sutra and the Eternal Shakamuni Buddha embrace and include everything, even the non Buddhist things.
Namu Myoho Renge Kyo

[rory]

Mara is there because of Ichinen Sanzen, even in Hell you can access the Eternal Buddha...just like Devadatta will become a Buddha so will Mara. Read the Devadatta chapter of the Lotus Sutra.
gassho
Rory

[Masaru]

Even jerks will transform into Buddhas given enough time and a connection to the Lotus Sutra - which is good news to me. Lol. I think part of the reason Catholics choose to pray to depictions of Yeshua's gruesome execution on their altars is because some of us need a reminder of what we are capable of. It's said that Mother Teresa chose to help the poor after she realized that a part of her own heart was like Adolf Hitler's. Nichirenista, maybe consider first what the Gohonzon actually is and then consider what it means for your life to embrace and contain everything even as your own life is embraced and contained by everything. As non-dualists, we have to deal with everything as it is rather than as we think it should be. We can be overcome by our own Darkness, or become aware of it and use it to increase our understanding and aid our awakening.