Shurangama Sutra classification?

Post Reply
Yuren
Posts: 166
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 1:39 am

Shurangama Sutra classification?

Post by Yuren »

How would the Nichiren / Lotus school classify the Shurangama Sutra?
I'm not aware of Nichiren expressing his thoughts on this matter.
But if we are to extrapolate?

I am assuming its contents put it in the Separate Teaching category; like the Vimalakirti Nirdesa it teaches a Pure Mind separate from phenomena. In the letter named Gift of Rice he writes:
. The meaning of the earlier sutras is that clarity of mind is like the moon, and that purity of mind is like a flower. But it is not so with the Lotus Sutra. It is the teaching that the moon itself is mind, and the flower itself is mind. You should realize from this that polished rice is not polished rice; it is life itself.
zengen
Posts: 233
Joined: Tue May 05, 2015 1:38 am
Location: Canada

Re: Shurangama Sutra classification?

Post by zengen »

I'm not aware of Nichiren's view of Shurangama Sutra. It's likely he never mentioned the Shurangama Sutra to his disciples as his aim was only to propagate the Lotus Sutra. That said, the Shurangama Sutra is an invaluable practical guide for someone practicing meditation.
The Surangama Sutra is a manual of meditation for all levels of understanding. If you have been meditating for decades and have considerable skill, it will do two things for you. One, it will help you go deeper. No matter what form of meditation you practice, the wisdom of the Surangama can easily be woven into it. Two, and this is very important, it can help us avoid meditative self deception, which causes us to grasp and become attached to meditative states, thereby turning wholesome states into unwholesome ones.
Source: http://www.buddhadharma.com/Surangama.html
There is no meaning to cyclic existence.
User avatar
Queequeg
Former staff member
Posts: 14456
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: Shurangama Sutra classification?

Post by Queequeg »

Yuren wrote:How would the Nichiren / Lotus school classify the Shurangama Sutra?
I'm not aware of Nichiren expressing his thoughts on this matter.
But if we are to extrapolate?

I am assuming its contents put it in the Separate Teaching category; like the Vimalakirti Nirdesa it teaches a Pure Mind separate from phenomena. In the letter named Gift of Rice he writes:
. The meaning of the earlier sutras is that clarity of mind is like the moon, and that purity of mind is like a flower. But it is not so with the Lotus Sutra. It is the teaching that the moon itself is mind, and the flower itself is mind. You should realize from this that polished rice is not polished rice; it is life itself.
Its been a while since I studied the Suramgama.

Zhiyi probably would have considered it:
In terms of five flavors, curdled milk, ie. Vaipulya.
In terms of doctrine, in some respects Shared, in others Separate. (Sutras can contain different types of doctrines)

As for Nichiren, he mentioned the Suramgama briefly in several writings but only in passing. His citations to the text are rather neutral.

It appears that at his time, it was not particularly important outside of Zen circles, but he was clearly familiar with the text.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
illarraza
Posts: 1257
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:30 am

Re: Shurangama Sutra classification?

Post by illarraza »

Nichiren critiques this Sutra:

"The Shūramgama Sutra states: “If a person who has committed the five cardinal sins should hear of this shūramgama meditation and should conceive the desire for supreme enlightenment, then he would still be capable of attaining Buddhahood. But, World-Honored One, an arhat who has put an end to outflows is like a broken vessel, and will never be capable of receiving and upholding this meditation.” -- The Opening of the Eyes

He thus demonstrates that this Sutra is inferior to the Lotus Sutra because only the Lotus Sutra proclaims that all beings are capable of realizing Buddhahood, even Arhats.

Illarraza
User avatar
Queequeg
Former staff member
Posts: 14456
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: Shurangama Sutra classification?

Post by Queequeg »

illarraza wrote:Nichiren critiques this Sutra:

"The Shūramgama Sutra states: “If a person who has committed the five cardinal sins should hear of this shūramgama meditation and should conceive the desire for supreme enlightenment, then he would still be capable of attaining Buddhahood. But, World-Honored One, an arhat who has put an end to outflows is like a broken vessel, and will never be capable of receiving and upholding this meditation.” -- The Opening of the Eyes

He thus demonstrates that this Sutra is inferior to the Lotus Sutra because only the Lotus Sutra proclaims that all beings are capable of realizing Buddhahood, even Arhats.

Illarraza
That quote is actually misleading. Its the response of devas on hearing the Buddha's teaching. The Suramgama actually does teach universal Buddha nature, iirc. Nichiren however questioned if it's teaching on universal Buddha nature is the same as that taught in the Lotus. He never explained it further in extant writings. It goes without saying though that Nichiren considered it provisional and not final and complete.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Yuren
Posts: 166
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 1:39 am

Re: Shurangama Sutra classification?

Post by Yuren »

In Brook Ziporyn's Omnicentrism book, he articulates the difference between Shurangama's teaching and the LS teaching stressing that the Shurangama posits a "pure mind" as an absolute space, in which all that is, appears. The Chinese Chán is especially fond of the Shurangama, and that makes sense considering their "One Mind" teaching. It seems to be what the "Off Mountain" of Tientai were espousing, also, and some elements of Huayan/Chán (Zongmi). The Tientai "entailment" or the absolute interfusion between phenomenon and noumenon however, requires the phenomena to be disclosing the "true aspect" in themselves, without recurring to "pure mind"; hence Tientai's stressing the "contemplation of the deluded mind" instead of the "pure mind". This would place the Shurangama in the same category as the Vimalakirti and the Lankavatara, - and other "Mind-only" Sutras. - Would you say this assessment is correct?
User avatar
Queequeg
Former staff member
Posts: 14456
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: Shurangama Sutra classification?

Post by Queequeg »

A good deal of what I know about Tientai comes from prof. Ziporyn... I would defer to him... I lent that book a while ago so I proceed on what you wrote...

Your conclusion sounds right.

If you can get a hold of Hurvitz's biography of Zhiyi, it says he named several sutras by name in discussing the Vaipulya Sutras, including the Vimalakirti, but did not apparently discuss the Suramgama in the same context. My guess is that it was not an important sutra in Cina until after he passed. It apparently was for others in his lineage to address such texts.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
DGA
Former staff member
Posts: 9466
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm

Re: Shurangama Sutra classification?

Post by DGA »

Did the Surangama as now canonical in Chinese Buddhism even exist in Zhiyi's time?
User avatar
Queequeg
Former staff member
Posts: 14456
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: Shurangama Sutra classification?

Post by Queequeg »

Good point...

A little google sleuthing yields...

Kumarajiva translated a sutra titled the 首楞厳経, but I don't think this is the text we're talking about here. I don't know anything about that text.

The sutra I think we're talking about here apparently is known by the same abbreviated name, but bears a different formal title. This text is of obscure origin... and appeared in the 8th? century? Long after Zhiyi.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
DGA
Former staff member
Posts: 9466
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm

Re: Shurangama Sutra classification?

Post by DGA »

Queequeg wrote:Good point...

A little google sleuthing yields...

Kumarajiva translated a sutra titled the 首楞厳経, but I don't think this is the text we're talking about here. I don't know anything about that text.

The sutra I think we're talking about here apparently is known by the same abbreviated name, but bears a different formal title. This text is of obscure origin... and appeared in the 8th? century? Long after Zhiyi.
That's my understanding of the long Surangama sutra, the one we're discussing here. In my opinion, that text crystallizes much of Chinese Buddhist culture of that time, inclusive of the teachings of Great Master Zhiyi.

To the best of my knowledge, the long Surangama sutra entered the main Japanese Buddhist discourse with Tetsugen Doko, who propagated it as widely as he could, for a while. It never had the same purchase in Japan as it did and does among Chinese Buddhists, however.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetsugen_Doko
User avatar
Queequeg
Former staff member
Posts: 14456
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: Shurangama Sutra classification?

Post by Queequeg »

Jikan wrote:that text crystallizes much of Chinese Buddhist culture of that time, inclusive of the teachings of Great Master Zhiyi.
I was perusing a version with commentary - don't remember the commentator off hand - but I was actually struck by how much the commentary sounded like the polemical Tientai and Nichiren commentary...

That also explains what substantively sounds like Perfect teaching.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Post Reply

Return to “Nichiren”