Returning The Oath of Acceptance

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HAR
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Returning The Oath of Acceptance

Post by HAR »

Hi,

First of all i'm sorry if this offended some people on this forum. so about two years ago i just started learning about Buddhadharma
and at that time my family was introduced into Nichiren Buddhism and in the process receiving Gojukai - of which i also attended and
receiving the precepts from the bhikkhu.

Now after learning various schools of Buddhadharma i have decided on one school i really want to concentrate for the rest of my life,
of course by doing this i will break the oaths i have received.

How does one go if one wanted to return the oaths? Is it really necessary or not?
I mean can I just let life goes on and just focus on the new school?

I'm asking here first because i want to end the religious relationship with the circle of friends from my local Nichiren group nicely,
and also if i could possibly preventing bad karma (if any) from breaking the precepts....

Respectfully,
HAR
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Queequeg
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Re: Returning The Oath of Acceptance

Post by Queequeg »

You want absolution? No chance. Mercy does not figure in the workings of cause and effect.

If the vows you break are without ultimate substance, then breaking them will be liberation. If they are founded on Buddha dharma, then you only create detriment and obstacle for yourself.

Own your causes and effects. Stop being an obsequious snake.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
HAR
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Re: Returning The Oath of Acceptance

Post by HAR »

im simply asking if there is any way to return (end) the oaths. If there is none then its okay, thats my own karma then whatever happens

not interested in personal opinions, if you dont like me simply use the ignore function.

thanks
DGA
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Re: Returning The Oath of Acceptance

Post by DGA »

Queequeg wrote: Own your causes and effects. Stop being an obsequious snake.
I'm confused--perhaps there's some backstory here that I don't know, so please bear with me. The OP came in to ask if it is possible to give back a set of vows, which is a textbook way to own one's causes and effects in every Buddhist tradition I know of (if you're given a vow that you can't handle, then the responsible thing to do is to give it back and apologize). I don't see how the OP is behaving as a snake, nor how this personal attack is warranted. I have reason to believe that I'm not the only one confused by this exchange. Please help us understand what's going on here. Thanks.
daelm
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Re: Returning The Oath of Acceptance

Post by daelm »

HAR wrote:Hi,

First of all i'm sorry if this offended some people on this forum. so about two years ago i just started learning about Buddhadharma
and at that time my family was introduced into Nichiren Buddhism and in the process receiving Gojukai - of which i also attended and
receiving the precepts from the bhikkhu.

Now after learning various schools of Buddhadharma i have decided on one school i really want to concentrate for the rest of my life,
of course by doing this i will break the oaths i have received.

How does one go if one wanted to return the oaths? Is it really necessary or not?
I mean can I just let life goes on and just focus on the new school?

I'm asking here first because i want to end the religious relationship with the circle of friends from my local Nichiren group nicely,
and also if i could possibly preventing bad karma (if any) from breaking the precepts....

Respectfully,
HAR


Given what I understand about the three parts of the oath, they're largely just fealty to Nichiren as the sole source of authority. Taking refuge in the actual Buddha, which effectively breaks the oath, cannot possibly be the cause of bad karma.

Personally, I'd just let that sangha know that you will no longer be participating, and that you no longer regard yourself as a practitioner of that type. As for your friends, you should handle that in accordance with each of those relationships. There is no rule for that, just kindness.

Hopefully a Nichiren practitioner will jump in and let you know if there are formalities, but honestly, it's going to come down to that.
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Queequeg
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Re: Returning The Oath of Acceptance

Post by Queequeg »

No back story, and believe it or not, no animosity to the OP. I did however mean what I said - own your actions and bear the consequences of your decisions. Your fruits are your own - fare well.

If you take vows, it probably meant, at some level, you bought in and there was, in your perception, some underlying real aspect to what you were doing. Sure there are some people who just do things like take up spiritual paths on a lark - but that does not seem to be the case here. If it is, then there was no sincerity at the start and no real vow taken. Just move on to the next diversion.

If you did take the vows sincerely, but no longer see value in them, you have concluded on some level that they have no substance, and breaking them should, as far as you are presently concerned, have no particular consequence. If the vows are without substance, what purpose does a formal renunciation serve? If anything, it tends to suggest that you're confused and you're hedging, and hedging in spiritual endeavors is going to be more problematic for you in the long run. If you are committing to a spiritual path, commit, whole hog, and don't look back. If you want to really see if the spiritual path delivers what they say it does, the only way to know is to go all in.

What I'm actually saying to the OP is: Life is too serious and too short to go about it hemming and hawing, hedging. Go boldly.

In considering a formal renunciation, who's itch are you scratching? Are you trying to spare the feelings of your former fellows? Aren't you then really just patronizing them with your announcement? Are you trying to head off the possible karmic repercussions of breaking vows? It makes no sense. If its just about sparing your fellows, you are being obsequious in conforming to their minds and not your own.

Just go on with what you conclude is best for you. People you formerly associated will be and do whatever they do. If they continue good will toward you, they do so. If they are predisposed to feel betrayed, formal renunciation might take the edge off, but it won't fix anything.

Get your liberation as quickly as possible.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
HAR
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Re: Returning The Oath of Acceptance

Post by HAR »

how do you know i was taking it sincerely or not? even if i say i did or didnt here, what substance did it bring to my original question?
Queequeg wrote:own your actions and bear the consequences of your decisions. Your fruits are your own
part of my decision:
http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=17254

but of course that is not all
Queequeg wrote:In considering a formal renunciation, who's itch are you scratching? Are you trying to spare the feelings of your former fellows? Aren't you then really just patronizing them with your announcement? Are you trying to head off the possible karmic repercussions of breaking vows? It makes no sense. If its just about sparing your fellows, you are being obsequious in conforming to their minds and not your own.

Just go on with what you conclude is best for you. People you formerly associated will be and do whatever they do. If they continue good will toward you, they do so. If they are predisposed to feel betrayed, formal renunciation might take the edge off, but it won't fix anything.
lol, no comment. you do your life your way, i do my way
HAR
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Re: Returning The Oath of Acceptance

Post by HAR »

you can call me ignorant but i really dont know deeply about Nichiren's doctrines before taking the vow
i was taking the vow so i can join a sangha and learn more about Buddhadharma, that is why im taking the vow as simply as that- and i were really new in Buddhism

my local sangha has been very nice to me, so i dont want to hurt their feeling whatsoever - you want to call me a snake? lol suit yourself
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Queequeg
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Re: Returning The Oath of Acceptance

Post by Queequeg »

Not calling you ignorant. I have a more positive than not disposition toward you, not knowing you at all. I am, perhaps wording my comments a little too strongly for your taste, but my intent is to draw your attention to sort out what your thinking on this issue is.

I am suggesting very strongly, don't sell yourself out.

If you respect your former fellows, respect that they must fare for themselves, too. "Its not for me. Thank you." is all you need to say if the question their feelings. Going to them and formally announcing your renunciation - that could be potentially more hurtful to others than just doing an Irish goodbye.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
HAR
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Re: Returning The Oath of Acceptance

Post by HAR »

Queequeg wrote:If you respect your former fellows, respect that they must fare for themselves, too. "Its not for me. Thank you." is all you need to say if the question their feelings. Going to them and formally announcing your renunciation - that could be potentially more hurtful to others than just doing an Irish goodbye.
now, that is a sound advice! and i thank you for that

as why i was intending to formally renounce, it was the link that i posted above.
but if that is not necessary - then i will just follow your advice
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Queequeg
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Re: Returning The Oath of Acceptance

Post by Queequeg »

I'm not quite following how the link relates to your question about formally renouncing.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
HAR
Posts: 26
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2015 7:29 am

Re: Returning The Oath of Acceptance

Post by HAR »

in a nutshell: im still afraid (yes im only a mere human being with fear)
that practicing other form of Buddhism other than Nichiren would bring divine retribution

however if that's not necessary i wil just follow your advice and just let life goes on and simply saying to my sangha that it is not for me and wish them the best in their practice

btw, i already got a lot of valuable input via PM.
I already have my own conclusion so thanks for everybody participating

Best Wishes,
HAR
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Queequeg
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Re: Returning The Oath of Acceptance

Post by Queequeg »

Jikan wrote:The OP came in to ask if it is possible to give back a set of vows, which is a textbook way to own one's causes and effects in every Buddhist tradition I know of (if you're given a vow that you can't handle, then the responsible thing to do is to give it back and apologize).
What OP is talking about is akin to renouncing the triratna; taking vows such as the 5 or 8 precepts is a different matter.

Taking the refuges is an admission into a certain understanding, however feeble it may be at the start, about the nature of reality. Taking vows such as the 5 or 8 precepts, on the other hand, is a resolution to conduct oneself in some particular manner within the refuge. Even if you were to renounce the precepts after having taken them, it would not be the same as renouncing refuge - "I can't handle it." is different than "I don't believe it."

If you don't believe the truth of something, then what purpose is there to a formal renunciation to your fellows? The logic of renunciation requires that the object being renounced still has reality to you. If you no longer see the reality of something, then what exactly is this ritual of renunciation? Just let go.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Ayu
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Re: Returning The Oath of Acceptance

Post by Ayu »

Locked for review. Please take a break meanwhile.
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Re: Returning The Oath of Acceptance

Post by Ayu »

Decision: this topic will be kept locked, because the OP's question is answered sufficiently. Furthermore the discussion is percepted as offensive against the OP as single person.

Whoever likes to discuss that matter in general can open a new and less personalized thread, please.

With regards
:namaste:
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