Do other sections of Dharma Wheel attract this many trolls?

[markatex]

One flounces out, and another one comes in to take its place. Occasionally, some substantial discussion comes out of one of the troll threads, but it seems to happen entirely by accident. It's really annoying.

[DGA]

I can say from long experience that the answer to your question is an unqualified, definitive NO.

[Ayu]

I would like to encourage you to report whatever you regard as trolling. I find it quite curious that there is nearly never a report in Nichiren section. This doesn't help me to understand what is going on in your subforum. Often I ask myself: do they enjoy the debate or are they toiling eachother?

[markatex]

I would like to encourage you to report whatever you regard as trolling.

I would, but I also have a day job.

I find it quite curious that there is nearly never a report in Nichiren section.

That's really interesting. I will say that the trolling is often subtle and sophisticated, like the recent poster who started and/or bumped multiple Soka Gakkai threads, refused to listen to anyone who said anything less than wonderful things about it, but finally decided that being asked to pay $50 for a Gohonzon and a magazine subscription was an indignity he couldn't bear, and then slinked off. I thought that one was especially masterful, if incredibly irritating.

Then there's the one today who came in throwing subtle shade and using buzzwords like "Nichirenism." It's not all-out flamebaiting, so maybe that's why nobody reports it. It would be very easy for them to play dumb, because rarely is anything said that technically violates any rules.

[Serenity509]

but finally decided that being asked to pay $50 for a Gohonzon and a magazine subscription was an indignity he couldn't bear, and then slinked off.

What I actually said is that, being asked to chant for $50 suggested to me a superstition or magical thinking that I don't want to be part of. I'm sorry if I came off as a troll for honestly sharing why I don't believe in chanting that way. Nonetheless, I still have an overall positive impression of SGI members themselves.

[Admin_PC]

Then there's the one today who came in throwing subtle shade and using buzzwords like "Nichirenism." It's not all-out flamebaiting, so maybe that's why nobody reports it. It would be very easy for them to play dumb, because rarely is anything said that technically violates any rules.

That's where it gets tough. When there's no clear violation of ToS, then it's hard to justify jumping in. This is especially true when there's no report to go on. I know reporting posts seems like a hassle, but the mods have day jobs too (at least most of us). It's basically impossible to read every thread on every subforum looking for posts that look trollish, I tend to be unaware of most issues until a report is submitted.

[rory]

There is a robust tradition of debating in Japanese Buddhism and especially Nichiren Buddhism, so I rarely report a troll - maybe that person can actually learn something. It also can lead to interesting discussions.

Personally my faith isn't so weak that I tremble at criticism & as for the $50, that's the SGI point! Get off your behind and do the practice, it motivates many and for Dharma it is especially worthwhile (though SGI is dharma lite)...NIchiren Buddhism is a strong, individualist practice. We don't rely on senseis or gurus to get enlightened. The Lotus Sutra and Daimoku are enough.
gassho
Rory

[Queequeg]

I would like to encourage you to report whatever you regard as trolling. I find it quite curious that there is nearly never a report in Nichiren section. This doesn't help me to understand what is going on in your subforum. Often I ask myself: do they enjoy the debate or are they toiling eachother?

Snitches get stitches?

Kidding.

The Nichiren Buddhists you encounter online in places like this are generally independents. There aren't many of us. Those of us who are here, most of us are former Soka Gakkai where information was tightly controlled. There's a few newer independent types who have never been connected to Soka Gakkai. It's hard to figure them out. Anyway... The online culture of English speaking Nichiren Buddhism:

As i was saying, most were former SGI. SGI was associated with a particular school of Nichiren Buddhism, Nichiren Shoshu, who believe, among other things, that Nichiren's teachings have wholly eclipsed the teachings of Shakyamuni, not to mention Tientai and others considered masters in the Lotus tradition. They discouraged study of anything other than Nichiren, and Ikeda's commentaries; begrudgingly, the chief priest of Nichiren Shoshu was acceptable prior to the schism.

The schism ripped everything wide open as many matters of doctrine we were told were absolute came to be refuted vigorously by Soka Gakkai official mouthpieces. It also coincided with the advent of usenet, and all of a sudden many of us who had questioned the official lines started finding each other in places like alt.religion.buddhism.Nichiren or ARBN. An actual independent movement was born back then with a guy making a high resolution gohonzon available for download. It also saw a guy named Bruce Maltz of a previous incarnation of Hokke Kempon who started critiquing the Shoshu/Soka Gakkai doctrines. Many of us who knew only Soka Gakkai had our eyes opened and we started exploring. Maltz gave it up years ago, but Illarazza has more or less continued the work. Others of us independents just went different directions. Me and Illarazza might be the only ones still active in online communitie from those days.

Coming from the very closed off SGI background, and then having our eyes opened, sometimes very rudely by the like of Maltz and Illaraza, we had a general understanding that we don't censor - you never know who might teach you something. That was the online culture we adopted and I guess like culture generally, its self perpetuating.

Ought we make a warmer community? Use the flagging option to soften things up? Maybe.

Nichiren lived at a particularly dystopian time - between the plagues, earthquakes, civil disorder and war, and invasion, I don't think there was much time for kumbaya. He saw the adversity as something that created tremendous opportunity to expiate karma - by propagating Dharma in such an evil age, the challenge was like the smith's anvil pounding out the impurities.

There's probably something in that contributing to our general laissez faire approach.

[Saguaro]

I haven't really looked too deeply into other strands of Buddhism, but I have wondered if maybe Nichiren Buddhism attracts more crazy people than other strands of Buddhism. I wonder if Nichiren Buddhism with its dogmatism (created by a man who was so focused on calamities that may overtake his country) appeals to people bent toward paranoia. There is a sort of end-of-days/rapture-like theme in Nichiren Buddhism.

I may be trying too hard here…. Earlier, Queegueg wrote that SGI is "spiritual triage." As SGI is the biggest branch of Nichiren Buddhism, maybe it stands to reason that many Nichiren practitioners are in desperate need of help -- hence, anxiety, etc., that may lead to trolling. That, and the SGI/Shoshu schism probably adds an antognistic bent to it all.

[Rita_Repulsa]

I haven't really looked too deeply into other strands of Buddhism, but I have wondered if maybe Nichiren Buddhism attracts more crazy people than other strands of Buddhism. I wonder if Nichiren Buddhism with its dogmatism (created by a man who was so focused on calamities that may overtake his country) appeals to people bent toward paranoia. There is a sort of end-of-days/rapture-like theme in Nichiren Buddhism.

I may be trying too hard here…. Earlier, Queegueg wrote that SGI is "spiritual triage." As SGI is the biggest branch of Nichiren Buddhism, maybe it stands to reason that many Nichiren practitioners are in desperate need of help -- hence, anxiety, etc., that may lead to trolling. That, and the SGI/Shoshu schism probably adds an antognistic bent to it all.

"Trolling" is often simply the mentioning of uncomfortable facts that "pop the bubbles" of others. Nichiren himself was considered a kind of "troll," albeit in real life and with real consequences. Ultimately, he considered it a spiritual practice which emulated the likes of bodhisattva Fūkyo, only he reminded others of their destiny by sternly correcting and reprimanding others. The frankness of the Nichiren school naturally leads to the direct confrontation of uncomfortable realities, which leaves some feeling "trolled." But this activity is the foundation of the school.

[Queequeg]

If one has no mirror, one cannot see one’s own face, and if one has no opponents, one cannot learn of one’s own errors. 

Nichiren, Kaimokusho

I've learned more in life by crashing against truth presented confidently and competently than from people who hold back out of consideration for my feelings. This is the flip side of shakubuku - the struggle of being confronted with shakubuku.

My hurt feelings are my problem to deal with on the path, not for others to worry about.

As Rita points out, sometimes it's difficult to distinguish trolling from an unvarnished presentation of the true.

Give it all a pass and let investigation, reason and experience sort it out.

[Saguaro]

A counselor once said to me "you will find more mentally ill people in religion than in any other walk of life." I'm certainly not saying that all practitioners of Nichiren Buddhism are mentally ill. But I do get a sense that there are quite a few mentally ill Nichiren Buddhists. I think the theme of martyrdom really appeals to many mentally ill people bent toward paranoia.

[Queequeg]

A counselor once said to me "you will find more mentally ill people in religion than in any other walk of life." I'm certainly not saying that all practitioners of Nichiren Buddhism are mentally ill. But I do get a sense that there are quite a few mentally ill Nichiren Buddhists. I think the theme of martyrdom really appeals to many mentally ill people bent toward paranoia.

As an example, look at Jesus' ministry. He appealed to the people at the margins of society.

Who are the people at the margins? People who don't have the right parents, who don't have the capability, or far less commonly the desire, to fit in. If you're happily abiding in the mainstream, what motivation do you have to seek an alternative way of being?

The Buddha was extraordinary because he sat at the pinnacle of his contemporary mainstream, but had the discernment to recognize the comfort offered among the herd is illusory. Most others who come to religion, and novel ones particularly, are generally already so far alienated that they are open to radical new approaches to being - because the one the rules of the world they live aren't working for them.

Nichiren Buddhism in particular through the vehicle of SGI was actively propagated to people of all walks of life, epitomized by the practice of "street shakubuku" particularly in the US. That method, combined with the disposition of those with whom a novel religious tradition will resonate would then tend to result in a population of adherents bearing the traits that make people marginal, in some cases mental illness and/or lower intelligence, but more often in the US, being a racial minority. If you're black and Buddhist, you're probably Nichiren Buddhist.

Most other forms of Buddhism do not place the same emphasis on outreach. Hence their converts tend to be the types who are alienated, subjectively, anyway, from their mainstream backgrounds by choice, and come upon the dharma through an active search.

Attend a sangha meeting in the US and look around at the people and its obvious how the outreach of that group works.

[rory]

Queequeg:
Nichiren Buddhism in particular through the vehicle of SGI was actively propagated to people of all walks of life, epitomized by the practice of "street shakubuku" particularly in the US. That method, combined with the disposition of those with whom a novel religious tradition will resonate would then tend to result in a population of adherents bearing the traits that make people marginal, in some cases mental illness and/or lower intelligence, but more often in the US, being a racial minority. If you're black and Buddhist, you're probably Nichiren Buddhist.

Most other forms of Buddhism do not place the same emphasis on outreach. Hence their converts tend to be the types who are alienated, subjectively, anyway, from their mainstream backgrounds by choice, and come upon the dharma through an active search.

Attend a sangha meeting in the US and look around at the people and its obvious how the outreach of that group works.

This is something I admire so strongly in SGI, my local meeting is 90% South Asian, HIspanic, Black & 10% white plus a big element of blue collar workers. That really inspires me. Even in '96 when I was still in NYC I was curious hung around the old SGI headquarters in Union Square and a girl invited me in, showed me how to practice -a complete stranger. Believe me I found/find this astonishing when you see how cliquey Buddhist groups are in the US.

Queequeg and Illaraza; would you describe the old street shakubuku as one day I'd really like to do this
gassho
Rory
fyi Rita Repulsa are you Masaru?

[Saguaro]

Dear Quequeg:

I only wish all Nichiren Buddhists expressed themselves as intelligently and logically (and sane-ly) as you. If that were the case, then I would not say that I suspect many are mentally ill.

A counselor once said to me "you will find more mentally ill people in religion than in any other walk of life." I'm certainly not saying that all practitioners of Nichiren Buddhism are mentally ill. But I do get a sense that there are quite a few mentally ill Nichiren Buddhists. I think the theme of martyrdom really appeals to many mentally ill people bent toward paranoia.

As an example, look at Jesus' ministry. He appealed to the people at the margins of society.

Who are the people at the margins? People who don't have the right parents, who don't have the capability, or far less commonly the desire, to fit in. If you're happily abiding in the mainstream, what motivation do you have to seek an alternative way of being?

The Buddha was extraordinary because he sat at the pinnacle of his contemporary mainstream, but had the discernment to recognize the comfort offered among the herd is illusory. Most others who come to religion, and novel ones particularly, are generally already so far alienated that they are open to radical new approaches to being - because the one the rules of the world they live aren't working for them.

Nichiren Buddhism in particular through the vehicle of SGI was actively propagated to people of all walks of life, epitomized by the practice of "street shakubuku" particularly in the US. That method, combined with the disposition of those with whom a novel religious tradition will resonate would then tend to result in a population of adherents bearing the traits that make people marginal, in some cases mental illness and/or lower intelligence, but more often in the US, being a racial minority. If you're black and Buddhist, you're probably Nichiren Buddhist.

Most other forms of Buddhism do not place the same emphasis on outreach. Hence their converts tend to be the types who are alienated, subjectively, anyway, from their mainstream backgrounds by choice, and come upon the dharma through an active search.

Attend a sangha meeting in the US and look around at the people and its obvious how the outreach of that group works.

[HAR]

i had bad experience trying to ask a question in this subforum and were treated harshly,
sometimes people are asking online rather than offline because of circumstances.

well now we have new addition to TOS regarding abusive language, lets hope discussions are more civilized now

[Queequeg]

Dear Quequeg:

I only wish all Nichiren Buddhists expressed themselves as intelligently and logically (and sane-ly) as you. If that were the case, then I would not say that I suspect many are mentally ill.

Well, you caught me on a good day.

would you describe the old street shakubuku as one day I'd really like to do this

A little history lesson...

Nichiren started the street shakubuku. He'd go to a thoroughfare in Kamakura and start preaching - explaining that the chaos in society and hardship in people's lives was because of active hostility toward the Buddha's sublime teaching on the True Aspect, namely the Lotus Sutra. There he'd debate other preachers and passersby.

Some disciples followed in those footsteps...

These days you will see Nichiren monks and nuns walking and chanting, causing people to 'hear the name' thereby making a connection to the sublime dharma.

The street shakubuku, at least as described to me, often involved walking down the street, going up to people and asking if they would like to go to a Buddhist meeting. In NYC in those days there was meeting somewhere in the vicinity every night. People would be brought up to someone's apartment where the meeting was taking place, beads pressed into their hands, and encouraged to join in the chanting. Then the meeting would proceed through the standard format - a little presentation of Buddhist ideas - karma, cause and effect, interdependence, 10 realms, etc., an experience from someone describing benefits they've realized, and then a closing remark from a Japanese man, sometimes a woman.

It also included intro seminars at college campuses, public libraries, basically wherever there might be curious people.

The easy pitch, 'individual happiness, world peace', the easy (easy in theory, difficult to actually maintain) practice, and supportive community worked. The 'pioneers' the people who did this activity, as they were called were people inspired to save every person and put in that kind of energy and concern into each person.

It resonated in black communities for sure. If you think about it its not hard to figure. Nichiren's message of defiance against persecution in the name of truth you can imagine doesn't just resonate with people with persecution complexes, but with people who actually suffer de jure and de facto persecution. Passive contemplation I don't think has the same appeal for a persecuted minority as Nichiren's emphasis on turning poison into medicine - approaching adversity as an opportunity to grow.

On that note, maybe Nichiren particularly would appeal to people who are actively marginalized, more than most other Buddhist teachings, I surmise.

[Rita_Repulsa]

Soka Gakkai has been described by many as a cult due to its authoritarian tactics to silence those within the organization and outside of it. This has been borne out in the record with many court cases in Japan, a few outside, and countless experiences of individual members who have had run-ins with leaders in the organization due to their inquiries reaching too far. Once Soka Gakkai was excommunicated by its priesthood, much of this was inevitable as they are on shaky ground doctrinally and with their own internal politics. This organization and its instability has created the greatest and most resounding discord in the history of the Nichiren school, and it's something that has spread into the politics of Japan.

Obviously, the Japanese - members of the axis forces during WWII, known for their genocides in Asia among people who could have easily become their allies - have a different way of handling authority in their country and their heavy handed approach has backfired with atomic force in many places outside of Japan, particularly in the United States. The place of Nichiren Buddhism in the "establishment" of Japan makes the religion a place for fractious and intractable conflict elsewhere. One can only bear in mind Nichiren's many warnings to his people, particularly as Japan begins to remilitarize and the concerns of that nation may contrast sharply with those of the United States, and much of the world, in the foreseeable future.

[Queequeg]

Soka Gakkai has been described by many as a cult due to its authoritarian tactics to silence those within the organization and outside of it. This has been borne out in the record with many court cases in Japan, a few outside, and countless experiences of individual members who have had run-ins with leaders in the organization due to their inquiries reaching too far. Once Soka Gakkai was excommunicated by its priesthood, much of this was inevitable as they are on shaky ground doctrinally and with their own internal politics. This organization and its instability has created the greatest and most resounding discord in the history of the Nichiren school, and it's something that has spread into the politics of Japan.

Obviously, the Japanese - members of the axis forces during WWII, known for their genocides in Asia among people who could have easily become their allies - have a different way of handling authority in their country and their heavy handed approach has backfired with atomic force in many places outside of Japan, particularly in the United States. The place of Nichiren Buddhism in the "establishment" of Japan makes the religion a place for fractious and intractable conflict elsewhere. One can only bear in mind Nichiren's many warnings to his people, particularly as Japan begins to remilitarize and the concerns of that nation may contrast sharply with those of the United States, and much of the world, in the foreseeable future.

I see a lot of opinions and little substance. I'm not sure where you're getting this. I have no appetite to argue with you.

I will only suggest to people who read this: go get your information on modern Japan somewhere else.

[Rita_Repulsa]

I see a lot of opinions and little substance. I'm not sure where you're getting this. I have no appetite to argue with you.

I will only suggest to people who read this: go get your information on modern Japan somewhere else.

The Soka Gakkai's place in Japanese politics, both past and present, gives ample food for thought the more it is explored. Their unorthodox doctrines, however, are indefensable. Many posts here are missing, and while the post you're responding to is not directed at you, the torch for dealing with that treacherous organization that uses people and their faith has been lit and will remain lit.

You seem halfway decent, (half the time, anyway,) and I accept that completely.
Gassho