why I have decided to not use SGI sites for information

[narhwal90]

My perspective on it is Minobu was suggesting that we don't need a magic seat, we have enlightenment in us all, already. As far as the bodhi tree, who can say what did or did not happen there, OTOH it seems to me realization could happen there but not be fully explained until much later in the Lotus Sutra et al. OTTH I have heard it argued that the sutras (Pali Canon and Lotus at least) were compiled and edited if not actually written later by followers years after Sakyamuni's death, they are not transcriptions taken at the time, so literal interpretations of events could be hasty.

[Minobu]

We know from the Lotus Sutra that Buddha did not achieve enlightenment under the Bodhi tree and that was just drama. A convention or expedient device.

The seat of enlightenment is in your person.

Right, well, bodhimanda has a specific meaning, one of which is the seat beneath the pipal tree in Gaya. Just as the rest of the words in your post more or less have meanings we all agree to. Otherwise, this is all just gibberish.

The seat of enlightenment being in us is a unique reinterpretation. Do you have a source for this?

Did not Nichiren Shonin write that the Gohonzon can only be found in your five foot body.

My perspective on it is Minobu was suggesting that we don't need a magic seat, we have enlightenment in us all, already. As far as the bodhi tree, who can say what did or did not happen there, OTOH it seems to me realization could happen there but not be fully explained until much later in the Lotus Sutra et al. OTTH I have heard it argued that the sutras (Pali Canon and Lotus at least) were compiled and edited if not actually written later by followers years after Sakyamuni's death, they are not transcriptions taken at the time, so literal interpretations of events could be hasty.

without faith and some understanding in the Dharma Kaya confusion and doubt is all that is left. Been there , done that , burned the tee shirt.

[Minobu]

Otherwise, this is all just gibberish.

Maybe i should be less here, my language and ability to express what I feel is correct, is obviously too lousy to put here
i honestly do not see where I am wrong if you could please show me i would appreciate it.

It might take a few posts to express myself. but i do not think i'm far of the mark that it is gibberish .
like i said a 61 year old with a grade nine education is sometimes an embarrassment, and I guess you are just thinking of others.
d

[Minobu]

Once we find out that the Buddha was indeed the Buddha before arriving as Siddhartha , his entire life becomes a lesson.
That is what i meant by expedient means or convention

[Queequeg]

Did not Nichiren Shonin write that the Gohonzon can only be found in your five foot body.

But that is not quite the place of practice (seat of enlightenment, etc.). Nichiren did not teach some cartoonish Mind-Only approach where everything just happens in our head. Ichinen Sanzen specifically embraces not only the mind (the nexus of reality from which we subjectively look on the world), but the environment, as well, rocks and trees down to the minutest speck of dust.

The Place of Practice is actually a place...

Let's look at the passage Illaraza quoted above in his translation comparison - but here I'll use the BDK version (because its the go-to for contemporary scholars, easily available on the internet, and easy to cut and paste from.) (here, dojo is translated as "Terrace of Enlightenment")

For this reason, after the parinirvāṇa of the Tathāgata, you should wholeheartedly preserve, recite, explain, and copy it, and practice according to the teaching. Those who accept, recite, explain, and copy it, and practice according to the teaching, in whichever land they may be, in a place where the sutra abides—either in a garden, a forest, under a tree, in a monk’s chamber, in a layman’s house, in a palace, on a mountain, in a valley, or in the wilderness—in all of these places they should erect and pay homage to a monument. Why is this? Because you should know that these places are the terraces of enlightenment where all the buddhas have attained highest, complete enlightenment, where all the buddhas have turned the wheel of the Dharma, and where all the buddhas entered parinirvāṇa.”

I think we can understand more of what Nichiren meant by considering the Three Great Secret Laws - Sandaihiho. They are, Object of Devotion of the Primordial Gate (本門の本尊 honmon no honzon), the Ordination Platform of the Primordial Gate (本門の戒壇 honmon no honzon), and the August Name of the Primordial Gate (本門の題目 honmon no daimoku).

I believe the "Place of Practice" relates to the Ordination Platform of the Primordial Gate. It is not clear, but specifically, many believe we are supposed to establish an actual Ordination Platform of the Primordial Gate - somewhat similar to the Ordination Platform of the Bodhisattva Precepts at Mt. Hiei. More generally, many believe the Ordination Platform of the Primordial Gate is where we carry out our Lotus Sutra activities, wherever that may be - "in a garden, a forest, under a tree, in a monk’s chamber, in a layman’s house, in a palace, on a mountain, in a valley, or in the wilderness", most particularly, reading the sutra with our bodies.

Been there , done that , burned the tee shirt.

[Queequeg]

Otherwise, this is all just gibberish.

Maybe i should be less here, my language and ability to express what I feel is correct, is obviously too lousy to put here
i honestly do not see where I am wrong if you could please show me i would appreciate it.

It might take a few posts to express myself. but i do not think i'm far of the mark that it is gibberish .
like i said a 61 year old with a grade nine education is sometimes an embarrassment, and I guess you are just thinking of others.
d

Dave, I'm sorry. I will try to be gentler.

What I'm pushing is for more precision in language and directly related to that, understanding. I appreciate and get where you're going. I agree with a lot of what you write. My obsession with language is my hang up. We have no other way to communicate with each other in the medium so its important to try and be precise.

You've been through it and you know - people with the best intentions took liberties in trying to explain Nichiren, and we ended up with some big misunderstandings circulating. The telephone game amplified and transformed the message in ways that became unrecognizable. A lot of that had to do with preceding off the cuff.

I do it, too, so my stance to you is as much a stance against myself. Probably more so. You don't have to live in my head all the time...

[narhwal90]

"We must, indeed, all hang together or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately."

[Minobu]

Otherwise, this is all just gibberish.

Maybe i should be less here, my language and ability to express what I feel is correct, is obviously too lousy to put here
i honestly do not see where I am wrong if you could please show me i would appreciate it.

It might take a few posts to express myself. but i do not think i'm far of the mark that it is gibberish .
like i said a 61 year old with a grade nine education is sometimes an embarrassment, and I guess you are just thinking of others.
d

Dave, I'm sorry. I will try to be gentler.

What I'm pushing is for more precision in language and directly related to that, understanding. I appreciate and get where you're going. I agree with a lot of what you write. My obsession with language is my hang up. We have no other way to communicate with each other in the medium so its important to try and be precise.

You've been through it and you know - people with the best intentions took liberties in trying to explain Nichiren, and we ended up with some big misunderstandings circulating. The telephone game amplified and transformed the message in ways that became unrecognizable. A lot of that had to do with preceding off the cuff.

I do it, too, so my stance to you is as much a stance against myself. Probably more so. You don't have to live in my head all the time...

well as I said I guess you are doing it for others for I do not see you as a small minded vindictive guy.
And I asked for it. I need to be corrected

Anyway seat of enlightenment and the others do not compare to "Religious Places" and knowing the gakki what does that mean. Some verification that the district leader's house and meeting place becomes the Bodhi Tree.

Lets be real with how they use things . 200 years from now do we really want this to be the interpretation in stone.

[narhwal90]

I've never been told a district leader's house is a "seat of enlightenment" or that its anywhere else for that matter. I have heard it said that Eagle Peak exists just as much in a temple as in a homeless person's cardboard box in an alley somewhere. Its nice to go to a district leader's house or a community center to chant with others in front of a fancy butsudan, a change of pace and perhaps inspirational- but not somehow different.

To me a "seat of enlightenment" is anywhere you put your butt with the determination that its time to move your practice forward.

[Minobu]

I've never been told a district leader's house is a "seat of enlightenment" or that its anywhere else for that matter. I have heard it said that Eagle Peak exists just as much in a temple as in a homeless person's cardboard box in an alley somewhere. Its nice to go to a district leader's house or a community center to chant with others in front of a fancy butsudan, a change of pace and perhaps inspirational- but not somehow different.

To me a "seat of enlightenment" is anywhere you put your butt with the determination that its time to move your practice forward.

i agree with you in a certain sense.

But the thread is about interpretation and how they are inferred and used.

[narhwal90]

I agree- I guess I should've used different terms. In SGI meetings (I go a few times/month to local district meetings, a few times/year to bigger meetings, do service at the local community center) I have never heard that a community center, district leader's house or temple or are in any way different than an individual's plain old butsudan. Meaning, "seat of enlightenment", "place of practice" etc are pretty much wherever you are, or perhaps another way, its wherever you make it. The SGI material does say, as does Mr Ikeda, that its up to the individual and his/her motivation. In that way a homeless guy's butsudan set up on some milk crates is just as much a place of practice as an ornate setup in a temple.

[Minobu]

I agree- I guess I should've used different terms. In SGI meetings (I go a few times/month to local district meetings, a few times/year to bigger meetings, do service at the local community center) I have never heard that a community center, district leader's house or temple or are in any way different than an individual's plain old butsudan. Meaning, "seat of enlightenment", "place of practice" etc are pretty much wherever you are, or perhaps another way, its wherever you make it. The SGI material does say, as does Mr Ikeda, that its up to the individual and his/her motivation. In that way a homeless guy's butsudan set up on some milk crates is just as much a place of practice as an ornate setup in a temple.

I again agree whole hearted with what you write.

I just see things that differ , like using religious places instead of seat of enlightenment. It has a subtle twist to bolster SGI , which is naught to do with The Lotus Sutra.

Scholars might argue that it refers to the Bohdi Tree , but better leave it open to interpretation then nailing it down to a definite .

How many times have you had a feeling or what you see as a revelation with your practice that is so personal you could never explain it .

Thats how the Buddha Teaches. Or How people experience Buddhism on a personal day to day level.

The Lotus Sutra inspires each of us differently .
Of course Nichiren Shonin lays down the law , but there is always room for the experience of personal interpretation of a moment or personal event and that should not be made into law.

In my twenties I had the profound experience that The Gohonzon could only be found inside and that the scroll was not it. Because it was that way I felt i could do anything.
Excited I told my fukudanshabusho and he scolded me. No it is the scroll ! it messed me up.

When people treated the scroll badly it was like they were doing more harm than actually hurting a living being.

ok thats enough of this....been there and people have to come to their own terms.

[narhwal90]

No doubt there are many SGI leaders I am not inclined to spend time talking with, but there are also many I would. The whole "guidance" thing of the old days really turned me off. I guess it works for some. Now and again I hear of people scheduling time to do it but I've not been urged to do so.

Its funny though, I have a lot of the old NSA attitude towards images of the gohonzon. Its very cool to see the gohonzon-shu pages and I hazarded to print a few (and did not burst into flame lol), but wouldn/t dream of enshrining one. I'm tempted by some of the old gohonzon on ebay, how cool would it be to have a 200 year old gohonzon- but they're way too big for my altar, and the cost and doubt over provenance complicate the proposition.

[Minobu]

No doubt there are many SGI leaders I am not inclined to spend time talking with, but there are also many I would. The whole "guidance" thing of the old days really turned me off. I guess it works for some. Now and again I hear of people scheduling time to do it but I've not been urged to do so.

Its funny though, I have a lot of the old NSA attitude towards images of the gohonzon. Its very cool to see the gohonzon-shu pages and I hazarded to print a few (and did not burst into flame lol), but wouldn/t dream of enshrining one. I'm tempted by some of the old gohonzon on ebay, how cool would it be to have a 200 year old gohonzon- but they're way too big for my altar, and the cost and doubt over provenance complicate the proposition.

I too have some fond memories of the NSC C for Canada. A lot of really nice people dropped me and me mum lika hot potatoes when we joined the Hokkeko . I was a Kanji for a few years. So was me mum . We were shunned totally and an incident on the subway hurt me .
This teen ager I knew was doing a silent Gonyto thing and I approached her and just mentioned that me mum and I were Hokkeko . She said she knew and I said please don;t believe everything you hear .
that was it but it turned into this .

Dave approached a teen who was reading a New Century (Gakki material in Canada ) and ripped it up on the subway and shouted to the top of his lungs that it would lead her to hell.

My rhythm was pretty good in those days and out of the blue I met her mother downtown by accident . She was livid and knew it was a lie manufactured , by someone i actually really liked.

Those were rough days which I was told they stopped doing.

ok all this has to stop. I'm not into this and it isn't healthy.

your narwhale tusk is up me ass.LOL
d

[illarraza]

We know from the Lotus Sutra that Buddha did not achieve enlightenment under the Bodhi tree and that was just drama. A convention or expedient device.

The seat of enlightenment is in your person.

Right, well, bodhimanda has a specific meaning, one of which is the seat beneath the pipal tree in Gaya. Just as the rest of the words in your post more or less have meanings we all agree to. Otherwise, this is all just gibberish.

The seat of enlightenment being in us is a unique reinterpretation. Do you have a source for this?

From the perspective of Ichinen Sanzen and the unity of the Three Realms, it is a valid interpretation.

mark

[Queequeg]

We know from the Lotus Sutra that Buddha did not achieve enlightenment under the Bodhi tree and that was just drama. A convention or expedient device.

The seat of enlightenment is in your person.

Right, well, bodhimanda has a specific meaning, one of which is the seat beneath the pipal tree in Gaya. Just as the rest of the words in your post more or less have meanings we all agree to. Otherwise, this is all just gibberish.

The seat of enlightenment being in us is a unique reinterpretation. Do you have a source for this?

From the perspective of Ichinen Sanzen and the unity of the Three Realms, it is a valid interpretation.

mark

Source?

[narhwal90]

No doubt there are many SGI leaders I am not inclined to spend time talking with, but there are also many I would. The whole "guidance" thing of the old days really turned me off. I guess it works for some. Now and again I hear of people scheduling time to do it but I've not been urged to do so.

Its funny though, I have a lot of the old NSA attitude towards images of the gohonzon. Its very cool to see the gohonzon-shu pages and I hazarded to print a few (and did not burst into flame lol), but wouldn/t dream of enshrining one. I'm tempted by some of the old gohonzon on ebay, how cool would it be to have a 200 year old gohonzon- but they're way too big for my altar, and the cost and doubt over provenance complicate the proposition.

I too have some fond memories of the NSC C for Canada. A lot of really nice people dropped me and me mum lika hot potatoes when we joined the Hokkeko . I was a Kanji for a few years. So was me mum . We were shunned totally and an incident on the subway hurt me .
This teen ager I knew was doing a silent Gonyto thing and I approached her and just mentioned that me mum and I were Hokkeko . She said she knew and I said please don;t believe everything you hear .
that was it but it turned into this .

Dave approached a teen who was reading a New Century (Gakki material in Canada ) and ripped it up on the subway and shouted to the top of his lungs that it would lead her to hell.

My rhythm was pretty good in those days and out of the blue I met her mother downtown by accident . She was livid and knew it was a lie manufactured , by someone i actually really liked.

Those were rough days which I was told they stopped doing.

ok all this has to stop. I'm not into this and it isn't healthy.

your narwhale tusk is up me ass.LOL
d

I remember stuff like that too- lots of ill-will and the judgy outrage was not attractive. OTOH its not as simple as that then or now, back in the old days there were regularly scheduled & reciprocal outreach sessions with representatives of other religions of all kinds- to listen to one another's pitch etc- still going on now in the SGI where I practice.

Being so caught up in opinions about doctrinal right and wrong as to accost someone in the subway sounds to me like his own head was breaking into seven pieces. People being people, some will take things too far. Once in my NSA fuelled arrogance I thought I would debate a local christian pastor (don't recall the denomination), so as to help convert a friend of mine to get a gohonzon... not an elegant performance, and as it turns out I also suck at debating

Sorry about the tusk- was not trying to stick it anywhere

[Minobu]

No doubt there are many SGI leaders I am not inclined to spend time talking with, but there are also many I would. The whole "guidance" thing of the old days really turned me off. I guess it works for some. Now and again I hear of people scheduling time to do it but I've not been urged to do so.

Its funny though, I have a lot of the old NSA attitude towards images of the gohonzon. Its very cool to see the gohonzon-shu pages and I hazarded to print a few (and did not burst into flame lol), but wouldn/t dream of enshrining one. I'm tempted by some of the old gohonzon on ebay, how cool would it be to have a 200 year old gohonzon- but they're way too big for my altar, and the cost and doubt over provenance complicate the proposition.

I too have some fond memories of the NSC C for Canada. A lot of really nice people dropped me and me mum lika hot potatoes when we joined the Hokkeko . I was a Kanji for a few years. So was me mum . We were shunned totally and an incident on the subway hurt me .
This teen ager I knew was doing a silent Gonyto thing and I approached her and just mentioned that me mum and I were Hokkeko . She said she knew and I said please don;t believe everything you hear .
that was it but it turned into this .

Dave approached a teen who was reading a New Century (Gakki material in Canada ) and ripped it up on the subway and shouted to the top of his lungs that it would lead her to hell.

My rhythm was pretty good in those days and out of the blue I met her mother downtown by accident . She was livid and knew it was a lie manufactured , by someone i actually really liked.

Those were rough days which I was told they stopped doing.

ok all this has to stop. I'm not into this and it isn't healthy.

your narwhale tusk is up me ass.LOL
d

I remember stuff like that too- lots of ill-will and the judgy outrage was not attractive. OTOH its not as simple as that then or now, back in the old days there were regularly scheduled & reciprocal outreach sessions with representatives of other religions of all kinds- to listen to one another's pitch etc- still going on now in the SGI where I practice.

Being so caught up in opinions about doctrinal right and wrong as to accost someone in the subway sounds to me like his own head was breaking into seven pieces. People being people, some will take things too far. Once in my NSA fuelled arrogance I thought I would debate a local christian pastor (don't recall the denomination), so as to help convert a friend of mine to get a gohonzon... not an elegant performance, and as it turns out I also suck at debating

Sorry about the tusk- was not trying to stick it anywhere

you have a cool head on your shoulders. I respect your style and way you implement your ideals in your life and remain loyal to your cause.
You make me think and realize that you too will eventually attain Buddhahood. I must keep in mind Soka Gakki members are cherished by our Master and Guru Nichiren Shonin Looked after by His entourage and they develop in this Dharma like anyone else.

Me mum was a lot like you and she had the label rebel. She wore it proudly.

I don't know if you got it , but no one actually ripped up any New Century magazine. That was a story made up to discredit me.

When talking to her mum my concern was the lack of judgement they had for this little girl's reality.

On one hand she is trying to do gongyo and practice and on the other hand she knew what went down and what did not go down. Then she becomes a pawn in some inane attempt to ruin someone.

yeah this morning i wished i had not posted this....let it go Dave let it go.....

i've a touch of obsessive compulsive disorder and it is hard to let things slide.

your alright narwhal
d