Does enlightenment bring joy?

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kilowatt
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Does enlightenment bring joy?

Post by kilowatt »

This might be a loaded question, but is enlightenment in terms of the Lotus Sutra supposed to bring us joy or rather to bring us a resilience toward suffering?

I'm pretty confused about suffering and how it all fits into the Lotus Sutra and Nichiren's writings. What do both of them make of suffering and how do they see it in terms of leading to enlightenment? Or am I asking the wrong questions...?

Thanks!
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Minobu
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Re: Does enlightenment bring joy?

Post by Minobu »

kilowatt wrote:This might be a loaded question, but is enlightenment in terms of the Lotus Sutra supposed to bring us joy or rather to bring us a resilience toward suffering?

I'm pretty confused about suffering and how it all fits into the Lotus Sutra and Nichiren's writings. What do both of them make of suffering and how do they see it in terms of leading to enlightenment? Or am I asking the wrong questions...?

Thanks!
suffering is due to grasping .
enlightenment ends grasping.
then of course one needs to eliminate karma, i don't think there is a formula to phhhitttt that away.
unless of course you go into one of those velvet boxes in catholic churches and tell your sins to some guy in a black dress.
markatex
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Re: Does enlightenment bring joy?

Post by markatex »

kilowatt wrote:This might be a loaded question, but is enlightenment in terms of the Lotus Sutra supposed to bring us joy or rather to bring us a resilience toward suffering?
I don't think those are mutually exclusive things. Or even that they're necessarily different things. "Buoyancy" in the face of life's vicissitudes is itself a kind of joy, it seems to me.
I'm pretty confused about suffering and how it all fits into the Lotus Sutra and Nichiren's writings. What do both of them make of suffering and how do they see it in terms of leading to enlightenment? Or am I asking the wrong questions...?
Suffering is the reason we're doing all this. For me at least, it's the reason I became interested in a spiritual orientation toward life. Otherwise, I'd have the Peggy Lee approach: "If that's all there is...then let's keep dancing...let's break out the booze and have a ball." I don't think Nichiren's or the Lotus Sutra's attitude is any kind of departure from the earlier teachings of the Four Noble Truths, etc. That's the underpinning for all of this.
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Minobu
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Re: Does enlightenment bring joy?

Post by Minobu »

markatex wrote:
kilowatt wrote:This might be a loaded question, but is enlightenment in terms of the Lotus Sutra supposed to bring us joy or rather to bring us a resilience toward suffering?
I don't think those are mutually exclusive things. Or even that they're necessarily different things. "Buoyancy" in the face of life's vicissitudes is itself a kind of joy, it seems to me.
I'm pretty confused about suffering and how it all fits into the Lotus Sutra and Nichiren's writings. What do both of them make of suffering and how do they see it in terms of leading to enlightenment? Or am I asking the wrong questions...?
Suffering is the reason we're doing all this. For me at least, it's the reason I became interested in a spiritual orientation toward life. Otherwise, I'd have the Peggy Lee approach: "If that's all there is...then let's keep dancing...let's break out the booze and have a ball." I don't think Nichiren's or the Lotus Sutra's attitude is any kind of departure from the earlier teachings of the Four Noble Truths, etc. That's the underpinning for all of this.
:good:
Vasana
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Re: Does enlightenment bring joy?

Post by Vasana »

I don't know anything about Nichiren but if even the path of Arhatship brings Joy, then you can be sure that any kind of Mahayana enlightenment will be joyful too. Different degrees of joy can also arise before full enlightenment.

Mudita - sympathetic joy is one of the four sublime states (appamañña).

'Here, monks, a disciple dwells pervading one direction with his heart filled with sympathetic joy, likewise the second, the third and the fourth direction; so above, below and around; he dwells pervading the entire world everywhere and equally with his heart filled with sympathetic joy, abundant, grown great, measureless, free from enmity and free from distress.' — Digha Nikaya 13

and,
The Nichiren tradition of Japanese Buddhism interprets immeasurable love, compassion, and joy, merely mentioned in The Lotus Sutra, in a manner similar to that found in the Theravada presentation. Thus, immeasurable joy, for example, is the attitude of rejoicing when limited beings have happiness. Immeasurable equanimity, however, is explained as an even-minded attitude toward happiness and unhappiness, pleasure and pain, in all circumstances, such as when meeting friends and enemies. It is a state of complete tranquility. Further, immeasurable equanimity is the state of mind that is rid of the attitudes of immeasurable love, compassion, and joy. It is aware of others in such a way that it not only experiences neither happiness nor unhappiness, but is also neither attracted nor repelled by others. Thus, immeasurable equanimity parallels the fourth level of mental stability in that it is free of all feelings of unhappiness, physical and mental happiness, and the quiet joy of mental peace.
- Berzin

more found here,
https://studybuddhism.com/en/advanced-s ... na-and-bon
'When thoughts arise, recognise them clearly as your teacher'— Gampopa
'When alone, examine your mind, when among others, examine your speech'.— Atisha
jkarlins
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Re: Does enlightenment bring joy?

Post by jkarlins »

kilowatt wrote:This might be a loaded question, but is enlightenment in terms of the Lotus Sutra supposed to bring us joy or rather to bring us a resilience toward suffering?

I'm pretty confused about suffering and how it all fits into the Lotus Sutra and Nichiren's writings. What do both of them make of suffering and how do they see it in terms of leading to enlightenment? Or am I asking the wrong questions...?

Thanks!
Both?

I'd also say this- in terms of enlightenment, I like to look at examples of realized teachers. What are they like?


Jake
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Re: Does enlightenment bring joy?

Post by RengeReciter »

kilowatt wrote:This might be a loaded question, but is enlightenment in terms of the Lotus Sutra supposed to bring us joy or rather to bring us a resilience toward suffering?

I'm pretty confused about suffering and how it all fits into the Lotus Sutra and Nichiren's writings. What do both of them make of suffering and how do they see it in terms of leading to enlightenment? Or am I asking the wrong questions...?

Thanks!
The role of suffering in Nichiren's praxis is not altogether different from its role in the wider Mahayana. Why do we suffer? Much like children who give into unnecessary fear at the sight of their own shadows, suffering arises out of a fundamental misapprehension of reality. We have the wrong view of just about everything around us, and we consequently make equally misinformed choices as a result of those flawed models. Those choices perpetuate one another (i.e. karma) and maintain a veil of ignorance that shrouds our perception.

Buddhism is premised on the promise that, if we can simply see reality for what it is, we will no longer be subject to the ignorant writhing in pain that is par the course for samsara. The Buddha, endowed with perfect freedom from suffering as a result of wisdom, prescribed methods that would allow us to access an equivalent level of insight so that we too can be free. The Lotus Sutra is the perfect teaching that makes the dormant seeds of wisdom in our own minds fertile.

The daimoku is our practice of affirming our receptivity to Shakyamuni's teaching which has the effect of inducing our innate wisdom to flower. Enlightenment is nothing less than the complete and total blossoming of our wisdom.

Now, as I understand the matter, there are also lesser levels or degrees of enlightenment available. The Lotus has a purification capacity on our karma; it neutralizes or untangles the mess of flawed perceptions and their resultant effects that I mentioned above. At the gross level, this purification of karma manifests as favorable resolutions to the problems that we face, fulfilled wishes, and other phenomena that we generally categorize as benefit.

So, to summarize, we as Nichiren Buddhists must apply our practice to our sufferings to eventually bring forth full and total enlightenment.

Forgive any missed typos. I'm typing on my phone.
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Minobu
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Re: Does enlightenment bring joy?

Post by Minobu »

jkarlins wrote:
kilowatt wrote:This might be a loaded question, but is enlightenment in terms of the Lotus Sutra supposed to bring us joy or rather to bring us a resilience toward suffering?

I'm pretty confused about suffering and how it all fits into the Lotus Sutra and Nichiren's writings. What do both of them make of suffering and how do they see it in terms of leading to enlightenment? Or am I asking the wrong questions...?

Thanks!
Both?

I'd also say this- in terms of enlightenment, I like to look at examples of realized teachers. What are they like?


Jake
in lotus buddhism we already are Buddhas. the realization is in the practice itself during the defiled age.

it's the most expected of us at this time.

also i think we all know what enlightenment is anyway...we are Buddhas...buddhas though develope incredible siddhis and realizations as they continue...amass incredible stores of positive Karma..wealth , wisdom and health karma they know how to share... :reading: maybe :reading:
lol...
jkarlins
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Re: Does enlightenment bring joy?

Post by jkarlins »

Ok, so you are already are a Buddha. Is it joy or resilience?
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Minobu
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Re: Does enlightenment bring joy?

Post by Minobu »

jkarlins wrote:Ok, so you are already are a Buddha. Is it joy or resilience?
probably as a human buddha you feel all ten worlds. but without grasping...joy or anger or sadness is part and parcel to life...being buddha probably just makes the suffering of others more understandable and not so heavy due to emptiness of everything...

you know this whole what is buddha whats it like thing is not really my bag...all this thread after thread in section after section debating what it is all about by non enlightened beings is MOOT...
jkarlins
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Re: Does enlightenment bring joy?

Post by jkarlins »

Sure, but you entered the discussion. So if it's not your cup of tea that's too bad.

I mean, I hear you. It's speculation. But if it's moot then don't talk about it.
joy&peace
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Re: Does enlightenment bring joy?

Post by joy&peace »

There is a very nice section from the Vimalakirti Nirdesa Sutra --

Vimalakirti has just saved a bunch of people -- twelve thousand -- from bondage, and then the following exchange takes place.

“They asked him: ‘What is this joy in the Dharma?’
“He replied: ‘Joy in having faith in the Buddha; joy in listening to the Dharma; joy in making offerings to the Sangha; and joy in forsaking the five worldly pleasures; joy in finding out that the five aggregates are like deadly enemies; that the four elements (that make the body) are like poisonous snakes; and that the sense organs and their objects are empty like space; joy in following and upholding the truth; joy in being beneficial to living beings; joy in revering and making offerings to your masters; joy in spreading the practice of charity (dana); joy in firmly keeping the rules of discipline (sila); joy in forbearance (ksanti); joy in unflinching zeal (virya) to sow all excellent roots; joy in unperturbed serenity (dhyana); joy in wiping out all defilement that screens clear wisdom (prajna); joy in expanding the enlightened (bodhi) mind; joy in overcoming all demons; joy in eradicating all troubles (klesa); joy in purifying the Buddha land; joy in winning merits from excellent physical marks; joy in embellishing the bodhimandala (the holy site); joy in fearlessness to hear (and understand ) the profound Dharma; joy in the three perfect doors to nirvana (i.e. voidness, formlessness and inactivity) as contrasted with their incomplete counterparts (which still cling to the notion of objective realization); joy of being with those studying the same Dharma and joy in the freedom from hindrance when amongst those who do not study it; joy to guide and convert evil men and to be with men of good counsel; joy in thestat of purity and cleanness; joy in the practice of countless conditions contributory to enlightenment. All this is the Bodhisattva joy in the Dharma.’


Elsewhere there is this, from chapter 7 -- a really good chapter, from, of course, a really good Sutra.

Should practice joyful kindness which bestows the Buddha joy (in nirvana). “Such are the specialities of Bodhisattva kindness.”
Manjusri asked Vimalakirti: “What should be his compassion (karuna)?”
Vimalakirti replied: “His compassion should include sharing with all living beings all the merits he has won.”
Manjusri asked: “What should be his joy (mudita)?”
Vimalakirti replied: He should be filled with joy on seeing others win the benefit of the Dharma with no regret whatsoever.”
Manjusri asked “What should he relinquish (upeksa)?”
Vimalakirti replied: “In his work of salvation, he should expect nothing (i.e. no gratitude or reward) in return.”


Paperback is good. . . Charles Luk's translation is, in my view very excellent.

For reference and searching and such it's online here:
https://terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/Vimala ... Sutra.html
Om Gate Gate Paragate Parasamgate bodhi svaha
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Minobu
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Re: Does enlightenment bring joy?

Post by Minobu »

jkarlins wrote:Sure, but you entered the discussion. So if it's not your cup of tea that's too bad.

I mean, I hear you. It's speculation. But if it's moot then don't talk about it.
i don't think you get what i wrote and why.
sort of a middle way thing.
i'm curious, i have my own ideas and concepts from practice and study, and discuss them. I have a plethora of questions i pose here, to the great unenlightened masses...lol
but the bottom line is none of us are enlightened and i like to remind everyone of that that from time to time.

nothing to get snooty about, i'm not.
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Minobu
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Re: Does enlightenment bring joy?

Post by Minobu »

joy&peace wrote:There is a very nice section from the Vimalakirti Nirdesa Sutra --

Vimalakirti has just saved a bunch of people -- twelve thousand -- from bondage, and then the following exchange takes place.

“They asked him: ‘What is this joy in the Dharma?’
“He replied: ‘Joy in having faith in the Buddha; joy in listening to the Dharma; joy in making offerings to the Sangha; and joy in forsaking the five worldly pleasures; joy in finding out that the five aggregates are like deadly enemies; that the four elements (that make the body) are like poisonous snakes; and that the sense organs and their objects are empty like space; joy in following and upholding the truth; joy in being beneficial to living beings; joy in revering and making offerings to your masters; joy in spreading the practice of charity (dana); joy in firmly keeping the rules of discipline (sila); joy in forbearance (ksanti); joy in unflinching zeal (virya) to sow all excellent roots; joy in unperturbed serenity (dhyana); joy in wiping out all defilement that screens clear wisdom (prajna); joy in expanding the enlightened (bodhi) mind; joy in overcoming all demons; joy in eradicating all troubles (klesa); joy in purifying the Buddha land; joy in winning merits from excellent physical marks; joy in embellishing the bodhimandala (the holy site); joy in fearlessness to hear (and understand ) the profound Dharma; joy in the three perfect doors to nirvana (i.e. voidness, formlessness and inactivity) as contrasted with their incomplete counterparts (which still cling to the notion of objective realization); joy of being with those studying the same Dharma and joy in the freedom from hindrance when amongst those who do not study it; joy to guide and convert evil men and to be with men of good counsel; joy in thestat of purity and cleanness; joy in the practice of countless conditions contributory to enlightenment. All this is the Bodhisattva joy in the Dharma.’


Elsewhere there is this, from chapter 7 -- a really good chapter, from, of course, a really good Sutra.

Should practice joyful kindness which bestows the Buddha joy (in nirvana). “Such are the specialities of Bodhisattva kindness.”
Manjusri asked Vimalakirti: “What should be his compassion (karuna)?”
Vimalakirti replied: “His compassion should include sharing with all living beings all the merits he has won.”
Manjusri asked: “What should be his joy (mudita)?”
Vimalakirti replied: He should be filled with joy on seeing others win the benefit of the Dharma with no regret whatsoever.”
Manjusri asked “What should he relinquish (upeksa)?”
Vimalakirti replied: “In his work of salvation, he should expect nothing (i.e. no gratitude or reward) in return.”


Paperback is good. . . Charles Luk's translation is, in my view very excellent.

For reference and searching and such it's online here:
https://terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/Vimala ... Sutra.html
:good:
i recall a retired monk i had a discussion about the joy of practice.

We talked about how just practicing was a joy and was so pleasurable and then we would meet up with people where they talked about it like a task.
Drudgery like living your life just to do the dishes.

i used to run up the stairs to the Kai kon and later the cultural centre.
i recall being so excited over a new initiation i was preparing my mind for...weeks of intense practice and focusing on the tasks at hand during sadhana practice.

The time i was told to chant in secret for my father to cure his incurable illness...seven hours of chanting rolled off me and i wished for more time in my day.

I still carry that feeling, though not as intense when i was young and full of vigor...maybe if would not have left Nichiren Shonin's Teachings to explore others and let the practice go the way of putting away a good book. I dunno...it wasn't my fault and i think others might have experienced the same nightmare when the gakki broke all the rules of engagement.

then again if they did not do that i would still be practicing in accord with Ikeda's daily guidance and dumbing the teaching down , and down and down.
jkarlins
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Re: Does enlightenment bring joy?

Post by jkarlins »

Minobu wrote:
jkarlins wrote:Sure, but you entered the discussion. So if it's not your cup of tea that's too bad.

I mean, I hear you. It's speculation. But if it's moot then don't talk about it.
i don't think you get what i wrote and why.
sort of a middle way thing.
i'm curious, i have my own ideas and concepts from practice and study, and discuss them. I have a plethora of questions i pose here, to the great unenlightened masses...lol
but the bottom line is none of us are enlightened and i like to remind everyone of that that from time to time.

nothing to get snooty about, i'm not.
ok, maybe I am missing the point, I am sleepy

Jake
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Minobu
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Re: Does enlightenment bring joy?

Post by Minobu »

jkarlins wrote:
Minobu wrote:
jkarlins wrote:Sure, but you entered the discussion. So if it's not your cup of tea that's too bad.

I mean, I hear you. It's speculation. But if it's moot then don't talk about it.
i don't think you get what i wrote and why.
sort of a middle way thing.
i'm curious, i have my own ideas and concepts from practice and study, and discuss them. I have a plethora of questions i pose here, to the great unenlightened masses...lol
but the bottom line is none of us are enlightened and i like to remind everyone of that that from time to time.

nothing to get snooty about, i'm not.
ok, maybe I am missing the point, I am sleepy

Jake
nah your just a compassionate guy and too nice...
my type a Buddhist.
you always are polite ..but i was not really doing the whole dissing a conversation and trying to look better than others
jkarlins
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Re: Does enlightenment bring joy?

Post by jkarlins »

Minobu wrote:
jkarlins wrote:
Minobu wrote: i don't think you get what i wrote and why.
sort of a middle way thing.
i'm curious, i have my own ideas and concepts from practice and study, and discuss them. I have a plethora of questions i pose here, to the great unenlightened masses...lol
but the bottom line is none of us are enlightened and i like to remind everyone of that that from time to time.

nothing to get snooty about, i'm not.
ok, maybe I am missing the point, I am sleepy

Jake
nah your just a compassionate guy and too nice...
my type a Buddhist.
you always are polite ..but i was not really doing the whole dissing a conversation and trying to look better than others
Well not too nice! I wrote a rude response, thought better of it, then edited it!

:thanks:

Jake
joy&peace
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Re: Does enlightenment bring joy?

Post by joy&peace »

Yeah Minobu...

Thay says in one dharma talk... These are paraphrased... 'We've been doing walking practice for five days now, and what I've found is -- when asking practitioners whether it takes a great effort, they say no...'

'When you enjoy the blue sky, does it take a special effort? No, you just enjoy.'

He also says... 'The eyes of a baby'

:)

Very nice.

I liked it so much - especially the sky. . . its really great to see. . . There's even a thread for photos of sky
Om Gate Gate Paragate Parasamgate bodhi svaha
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