Chan Pure Land Buddhism

antiquebuddhas
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Chan Pure Land Buddhism

Post by antiquebuddhas »

This is first time I heard about Chinese Pure Land Buddhism.
What is the difference and similarities between Both Pure Land Buddhism?
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Re: Chan Pure Land Buddhism

Post by Admin_PC »

Sorry for replying late.
Most all schools of Chinese Buddhism teach the Pure Land method.
However, sometimes what they teaching can sometimes seem very different.
First of all, it depends on the particular school of Chinese Buddhism.

Some schools favor a Mind Only Pure Land, Amitabha as True Nature interpretation of the teachings. In this teaching, the Pure Land can be as real of an experience as the world we're currently living in, but that the way we experience this world starts from within - so as we undergo an internal change our interpretation of the "external" world changes as well (when the Mind is Pure, the Land is Pure - Vimalakirti Sutra). Also, Amitabha is not some external deity that must be appeased, but it is our True Nature that we cannot perceive because we are blinded by the 3 poisons of greed, anger, and ignorance. Often these schools teach that reciting the Nianfo helps us purify our minds and thus this interpretation is seen as a Self-Power school.

Other schools favor a more literal interpretation; such as that of master ShanTao. Here, there is an external Buddha that we venerate and an outside Pure Land to go to. Many masters have said this interpretation is better for generating true faith & reliance on the teachings, whereas they accuse some Mind Only presentations of being confusing. Key here is generating the faith & reliance on Amitabha. Thus, it is not our own efforts that lead to the Pure Land, but the guidance of Amida. The Nianfo here becomes something more of a tool for karmic resonance with Amida. Amida & his Vows have already done all the heavy lifting for us, so this interpretation is seen as an Other-Power school.

Both of these interpretations meet up in the middle once the selflessness (emptiness) of persons & dharmas is realized. So the differences mainly lie in presentation.

Hope that helps.
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Re: Chan Pure Land Buddhism

Post by Serenity509 »

In order to understand Jodo Shinshu practice within the context of Buddhism as a whole, it's helpful to consider the meaning of terms.
The original meaning of Namu Amida Butsu is "Hail, Amida Buddha."
The word Amida means "infinite light." The word Buddha means "one who is awake." By saying "Hail, Amida Buddha," then, you are calling forth your inner Buddha-nature, that infinite light within you and surrounding you that transcends your ego-self, and connects you with all living beings.
The beauty of the Nembutsu is in its simplicity. It can be practiced anywhere, at any time, without esoteric rituals or hours of intense meditation. You need only to call out your Amida-nature and become aware of it. The image of Amida on the altar or in your home, rather than a divine being outside you, is a mirror of your true self.
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Re: Chan Pure Land Buddhism

Post by antiquebuddhas »

PorkChop wrote:Sorry for replying late.
Most all schools of Chinese Buddhism teach the Pure Land method.
However, sometimes what they teaching can sometimes seem very different.
First of all, it depends on the particular school of Chinese Buddhism.

Some schools favor a Mind Only Pure Land, Amitabha as True Nature interpretation of the teachings. In this teaching, the Pure Land can be as real of an experience as the world we're currently living in, but that the way we experience this world starts from within - so as we undergo an internal change our interpretation of the "external" world changes as well (when the Mind is Pure, the Land is Pure - Vimalakirti Sutra). Also, Amitabha is not some external deity that must be appeased, but it is our True Nature that we cannot perceive because we are blinded by the 3 poisons of greed, anger, and ignorance. Often these schools teach that reciting the Nianfo helps us purify our minds and thus this interpretation is seen as a Self-Power school.

Other schools favor a more literal interpretation; such as that of master ShanTao. Here, there is an external Buddha that we venerate and an outside Pure Land to go to. Many masters have said this interpretation is better for generating true faith & reliance on the teachings, whereas they accuse some Mind Only presentations of being confusing. Key here is generating the faith & reliance on Amitabha. Thus, it is not our own efforts that lead to the Pure Land, but the guidance of Amida. The Nianfo here becomes something more of a tool for karmic resonance with Amida. Amida & his Vows have already done all the heavy lifting for us, so this interpretation is seen as an Other-Power school.

Both of these interpretations meet up in the middle once the selflessness (emptiness) of persons & dharmas is realized. So the differences mainly lie in presentation.

Hope that helps.
Namaste,
Yeah I get it little.
So, Chan Pure Land Buddhism relates that Amida Buddha in the similar world we live in.
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Re: Chan Pure Land Buddhism

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antiquebuddhas wrote:Namaste,
Yeah I get it little.
So, Chan Pure Land Buddhism relates that Amida Buddha in the similar world we live in.
Some of Chan masters say the Pure Land birth can be achieved here in this world.
Some other Chan masters say no, Pure Land birth is after death.
The first type are those people who focus mostly on meditation.
The second type are usually encouraging lay people to rely on Other Power.
Like I said, it really depends on the teacher.
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Re: Chan Pure Land Buddhism

Post by Bakmoon »

PorkChop wrote:Some schools favor a Mind Only Pure Land, Amitabha as True Nature interpretation of the teachings. In this teaching, the Pure Land can be as real of an experience as the world we're currently living in, but that the way we experience this world starts from within - so as we undergo an internal change our interpretation of the "external" world changes as well (when the Mind is Pure, the Land is Pure - Vimalakirti Sutra). Also, Amitabha is not some external deity that must be appeased, but it is our True Nature that we cannot perceive because we are blinded by the 3 poisons of greed, anger, and ignorance. Often these schools teach that reciting the Nianfo helps us purify our minds and thus this interpretation is seen as a Self-Power school.
I have a question related to this. Do the various Chinese masters who follow this interpretation of Pure Land say that Sukhavati is only to be understood symbolically, and that there is no Sukhavati Pure Land after death or do they take a both/and approach, saying that there is a Pure Land, and that it also conveys symbolic truths about the nature of our world?
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Re: Chan Pure Land Buddhism

Post by Admin_PC »

I think it's a "both/and" approach, saying that there is a Pure Land, and that it also conveys symbolic truths about the nature of our world. The book Buddhism of Wisdom and Faith has one of the most exhaustive treatments of this issue. Starting with the section "Essentials of Pure Land", subsection "3. Faith" all the way through subsection "5. Practice". That book does a much better job than I could ever do explaining this stuff.
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Re: Chan Pure Land Buddhism

Post by Fortyeightvows »

Serenity509 wrote: The original meaning of Namu Amida Butsu is "Hail, Amida Buddha."
The word Amida means "infinite light." The word Buddha means "one who is awake." By saying "Hail, Amida Buddha," then, you are calling forth your inner Buddha-nature, that infinite light within you and surrounding you that transcends your ego-self, and connects you with all living beings.
The beauty of the Nembutsu is in its simplicity. It can be practiced anywhere, at any time, without esoteric rituals or hours of intense meditation. You need only to call out your Amida-nature and become aware of it. The image of Amida on the altar or in your home, rather than a divine being outside you, is a mirror of your true self.
:buddha1:
Seriously
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Re: Chan Pure Land Buddhism

Post by 明安 Myoan »

Fortyeightvows wrote:
Serenity509 wrote: The original meaning of Namu Amida Butsu is "Hail, Amida Buddha."
The word Amida means "infinite light." The word Buddha means "one who is awake." By saying "Hail, Amida Buddha," then, you are calling forth your inner Buddha-nature, that infinite light within you and surrounding you that transcends your ego-self, and connects you with all living beings.
The beauty of the Nembutsu is in its simplicity. It can be practiced anywhere, at any time, without esoteric rituals or hours of intense meditation. You need only to call out your Amida-nature and become aware of it. The image of Amida on the altar or in your home, rather than a divine being outside you, is a mirror of your true self.
:buddha1:
Seriously
That's one interpretation.

Very interesting thread so far!
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Re: Chan Pure Land Buddhism

Post by Bakmoon »

PorkChop wrote:I think it's a "both/and" approach, saying that there is a Pure Land, and that it also conveys symbolic truths about the nature of our world. The book Buddhism of Wisdom and Faith has one of the most exhaustive treatments of this issue. Starting with the section "Essentials of Pure Land", subsection "3. Faith" all the way through subsection "5. Practice". That book does a much better job than I could ever do explaining this stuff.
Thank you very much. Those sources showed be very nicely how the different aspects of Pureland theory and practice fit together into a united whole.
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Re: Chan Pure Land Buddhism

Post by Fortyeightvows »

Monlam Tharchin wrote: That's one interpretation.

Very interesting thread so far!
A very excellent interpretation I think.
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Re: Chan Pure Land Buddhism

Post by antiquebuddhas »

PorkChop wrote:
antiquebuddhas wrote:Namaste,
Yeah I get it little.
So, Chan Pure Land Buddhism relates that Amida Buddha in the similar world we live in.
Some of Chan masters say the Pure Land birth can be achieved here in this world.
Some other Chan masters say no, Pure Land birth is after death.
The first type are those people who focus mostly on meditation.
The second type are usually encouraging lay people to rely on Other Power.
Like I said, it really depends on the teacher.
Oh, So now i got it.
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Re: Chan Pure Land Buddhism

Post by 明安 Myoan »

Fortyeightvows wrote:
Monlam Tharchin wrote: That's one interpretation.

Very interesting thread so far!
A very excellent interpretation I think.
And one suitable for this thread. May it bring happiness to many.

On the website of the local Chan temple, they say something along the lines of trying in this life to put an end to suffering with Chan practice, but if you don't succeed, then you have a good friendship with Amida who will help you out at death. Amida in this line of thinking is very much an external being, someone "not me".

My own thinking is influenced by Honen, so there are some points of departure.
I wouldn't mind seeing some ideas teased apart for discussion, so I'm thinking out loud here in the form of questions.
Serenity509 wrote:By saying "Hail, Amida Buddha," then, you are calling forth your inner Buddha-nature, that infinite light within you and surrounding you that transcends your ego-self, and connects you with all living beings.
* What is the need for Amida's vows if it's merely a matter of a pre-existent and connecting light?
* If one accepts the teaching of the threefold devotional heart, where does recognizing enlightened-nature fit in with the recognition of oneself as bonbu?
* How could Amida simultaneously be supremely compassionate and skillful, synonymous with our nature, yet here we remain in samsara for eons until now?
Serenity509 wrote:The beauty of the Nembutsu is in its simplicity. It can be practiced anywhere, at any time, without esoteric rituals or hours of intense meditation.
Isn't "calling forth your inner Buddha-nature" an esoteric practice? As a Soto dropout, buddha-nature was a teaching locked from the inside to me. I'm surely not alone in this.
Serenity509 wrote:You need only to call out your Amida-nature and become aware of it.
If we not only have the same nature as Amida, and if saying nembutsu is equivalent to becoming aware of it, then why aspire for birth in a Pure Land in the next life?
Serenity509 wrote:The image of Amida on the altar or in your home, rather than a divine being outside you, is a mirror of your true self.
What do you make of Shinran saying in the Tannisho, "Some people say that one can attain enlightenment in this very body filled with blind passion. This is completely out of the question."
In the little reading I've done of Shinran, Honen, and Shantao, I don't think I've encountered an exposition of this idea that Amida is a mirror of our true selves.
There is however this passage by Honen:
The Shingon school teaches that Amida Buddha resides in one's own heart; they do not admit his existence outside of one's heart. Jodo Shu, however, teaches that Bodhisattva Dharmakara realized buddhahood and became Amida Buddha and now resides in the west. These two viewpoints reflect great differences between the two schools.
But I know next to nothing about Shingon Buddhism, only that it's in the Vajrayana lineage :shrug:

I know this thread is about practicing Chan and PL in tandem, but I hope my curiosity isn't too out of place.
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Re: Chan Pure Land Buddhism

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Re: Chan Pure Land Buddhism

Post by 明安 Myoan »

Different schools, different interpretations I suppose.
I'm not sure doughnuts are delusion just because they have more sugar in the recipe than bread. :rolleye:

It can be interesting to learn about others' views and especially learn to respect them, so I hope my questions aren't taken to be combative in any way.
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Re: Chan Pure Land Buddhism

Post by Admin_PC »

I know most of your questions were probably rhetorical, but I'm just going to play a little devil's advocate because Serenity509's not hanging out here anymore (though you can find him on facebook).
Monlam Tharchin wrote:* What is the need for Amida's vows if it's merely a matter of a pre-existent and connecting light?
I think if you're capable of perceiving a "pre-existent and connecting light" then maybe the Pure Land Path (Other Power Gate) isn't for you.
Monlam Tharchin wrote:* If one accepts the teaching of the threefold devotional heart, where does recognizing enlightened-nature fit in with the recognition of oneself as bonbu?

The Pure Land Path (Other Power Gate) taught by Shan Tao is not really consistent with the Path of Sages (Self Power Gate) of True Nature Amida (aka Mind Only Pure Land) until the point of realization...
Monlam Tharchin wrote:* How could Amida simultaneously be supremely compassionate and skillful, synonymous with our nature, yet here we remain in samsara for eons until now?
The answer to that is probably the same as the answer to the question "if Amida fulfilled his vows eons ago, how come I'm still bouncing around in samsara?"
It's probably also related to Shinran's quote of Genshin: "Although I too am within Amida's grasp, blind passions obstruct my eyes and I cannot see [the light]; nevertheless, great compassion untiringly and constantly illumines me."
Monlam Tharchin wrote:Isn't "calling forth your inner Buddha-nature" an esoteric practice? As a Soto dropout, buddha-nature was a teaching locked from the inside to me. I'm surely not alone in this.
If not esoteric, then definitely an advanced practice for those of high capacity.
Monlam Tharchin wrote:If we not only have the same nature as Amida, and if saying nembutsu is equivalent to becoming aware of it, then why aspire for birth in a Pure Land in the next life?

See answer(s) to question about remaining in samsara for eons.
The point of Other Power teaching is that this isn't so simple. If we were capable of doing this, we wouldn't be bouncing around in samsara, blinded by delusions, cravings, and aversions.
Monlam Tharchin wrote:What do you make of Shinran saying in the Tannisho, "Some people say that one can attain enlightenment in this very body filled with blind passion. This is completely out of the question."
The simple answer is that Shinran followed the teachings of ShanTao & Honen, not the other masters who say differently.
The nuanced answer is that Shinran looked deeply within himself and only saw a flawed nature that was not capable of such Self Powered feats.
Monlam Tharchin wrote:In the little reading I've done of Shinran, Honen, and Shantao, I don't think I've encountered an exposition of this idea that Amida is a mirror of our true selves.
Because this is the teaching of the Path of Sages (Self Power Gate), not the Pure Land Path (Other Power Gate).
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Re: Chan Pure Land Buddhism

Post by 明安 Myoan »

Thanks much, PorkChop. That's very helpful :) Most of it seems to come down to if one enters the Holy Gate or the Pure Land Gate.
I sometimes really forget what the other is like and need a reminder.

I think forgetting about the two gates can be confusing because one person says "nembutsu is this" and another "no, it's this!"
PorkChop wrote:
Monlam Tharchin wrote:* How could Amida simultaneously be supremely compassionate and skillful, synonymous with our nature, yet here we remain in samsara for eons until now?
The answer to that is probably the same as the answer to the question "if Amida fulfilled his vows eons ago, how come I'm still bouncing around in samsara?"
It's probably also related to Shinran's quote of Genshin: "Although I too am within Amida's grasp, blind passions obstruct my eyes and I cannot see [the light]; nevertheless, great compassion untiringly and constantly illumines me."
Or Shantao's wide rivers of greed and anger that lap over the narrow white path of nembutsu to the western shore.

Just for my inclinations, Amida as an entity who's not-me, which incidentally is the only reference point I'm aware of, can have merit and skill and so forth which we can associate with, similar to holy friends or quiet places to make a shrine. Or to the immense benefit of even hearing a few Buddhist teachings, without us being Shakyamuni.
Amida can't kidnap us, any more than we can save a friend addicted to drugs from themselves. But if they reach out, if we cling to the sleeve of Amida, then something can happen. I won't proselytize here, though, but just as my interpretation of your question.

I suppose my questioning in general shows a basic lack of understanding of buddha-nature, versus the understanding of those who can put it to good use.
Arching my brows, moving my feet, I also get angry and do what I hate with the same ease and awareness. :shrug:

It might be something to explore as a basic point of doctrine in at least Honen's and Shinran's thinking, the idea of bonbu nature and our experiences with it in real terms. Maybe a new thread?
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Re: Chan Pure Land Buddhism

Post by LastLegend »

Pure Land is pretty clear Faith Vow Practice (usually recitation). Chan, according to a Vietnamese Bikkhisu(spll?), is knowing mechanics (functions/movements) of mind. Movements here are not literal movements but more like how we respond or react to what we come in contact with. But that knowing should not be taken literally in that we try to know the mechanics of mind. That knowing is more like a mirror knowing which only reflects images and forms. This mirror knowing the mechanics and everything else, it's not trying to fixate on the mechanics of mind. But knowing it as we know everything else.

From Lankavatara Sutra,

Mahamati, it is like a mirror indiscriminately and instantaneously reflecting in it forms and images; (56) in the same way, Mahamati, the purification by the Tathagata of all beings is instantaneous, who makes them free from discrimination and leads them to the state of imagelessness.

Notice the Tathagata here does not mean an external Tathagata. It means your own mirror Tathagata. Also, mirror is reflecting. This mirror knowing or Tathagata is in all of us. It's more of recognizing it.
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Re: Chan Pure Land Buddhism

Post by Serenity509 »

In order to learn to see this very world as a Pure Land, does that require being a form of self-power?
The Buddha said: “This Buddha land of mine is always pure, but appears filthy so that I can lead people of inferior spirituality to their salvation. This is like the food of devas which takes various colours according to the merits of each individual eater. So, Sariputra, the man whose mind is pure sees this world in its majestic purity.”
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Re: Chan Pure Land Buddhism

Post by Caodemarte »

As D.T. Suzuki wrote, absolute self power and absolute other power are the same thing. This is why Shin Buddhism and Zen can be so connected. It is why you can have Pure Land patriarchs who are also Chan patriarchs. At the level of daily practice, Pure Land and Chan are also connected by the common Chan practice of asking who is chanting while reciting Amida's name.
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