Sukhavati & Heaven: The Difference?
Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:21 am
A Buddhist discussion forum on Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism
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hi zamotcr. i sympathise, because it is something i think many struggle with (myself included). part of the problem is, imo, this teaching is rooted in experience. the question becomes then, how to share in the experience? a good teacher and samgha are invaluable (i can not, speaking from my own experience, stress this enough). i've also found considering and reflecting on the Asvagosa quote (see sig) alongside the 17th vow, and considering Shan Tao's Parable of the White Path helps shed some light on the matter, especially if we consider each in relation to our own life.zamotcr wrote:Great video!
But still I can't get it. We talk about Pure Land beyond heavens, beyond Samsara and beyond rebirth, but still in existence in this physical world, just in another galaxy far far away? Heavens seems more realistic in the sense that we can't see them because they are more subtle, not of physical material like us.
I like the idea of Pure Land, but this is my big trouble with them
http://amtb.co.uk/pure-land-buddhism/pure-land" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;Are the Mind-only Pure Land and the Self-nature Amitabha the same as or different from the Western Pure Land and Amitabha in the Pure Land?
It is because the Mind-only Pure Land exists that we are reborn in the Pure Land of the West. If the mind is not pure, it is impossible to achieve rebirth in the Pure Land. Even when those who have committed cardinal transgressions achieve rebirth through ten recitations, such rebirth is due to their reciting the Buddha’s name with a pure mind, thus eliciting a response from Amitabha Buddha. Ordinary people generally think that if the Pure Land is Mind-Only, then it does not exist. This is the understanding of demons and externalists. Such a deluded view, which appears correct but is in reality wrong, affects more than half of all people and causes practitioners to forfeit true benefits.
It is precisely because of the Self-Nature Amitabha that the practitioner must recite the name of Buddha Amitabha of the West seeking rebirth in the Pure Land – so as to achieve the Self-Nature Amitabha through gradual cultivation. If he merely grasps at the Self-Nature Amitabha but does not recite the name of Buddha Amitabha of the West, he cannot achieve immediate escape from Birth and death – not even if he is truly awakened, much less if (like most people who ask this question) he is pretentious and just indulges in empty talk without engaging in practice.
Thus the answer to your question [are the mind-Only Pure Land and the Self-Nature Amitabha the same as or different from the Western Pure Land and Amitabha in the Pure Land?] is that they are one yet two before Buddhahood is attained, two yet one after Buddhahood is attained.
Quoted from Pure-Land Zen ,Zen Pure-Land Letters from Patriarch Yin Kuang. Page 108 – 111
if one's mind is as pure as the Buddha, the place you are siting or located is Pureland. what the mind see outward is forever the pureland. there's no suffering, no duality, no what so ever as stated in Heart sutra. Everything that's positive is positive. Everything that's negative is also positive/pure. Everything is the way it's suppose to be. yet you see that all are pure. the table, the computer, the floor, the sky etc...all are pure!two yet one after Buddhahood is attained.
zamotcr wrote:It is true to say that the Amitabha's Pure Land is pure, because the people born there, living there have pure minds, because they are pure?
Wow, I'm surprised to see Wong Kiew Kit writing a book on Buddhism.PLB wrote:I found this book quite clear about:
-the difference between Pure Land and heavens
-reasons to believe that Pure Land is a real place. Actually, the author says ' as real as the physical world you exist in now'
http://www.amazon.com/Sukhavati-Western ... =sukhavati
I like a lot the video series of Master Sheng-yen, always clear.
http://www.fodian.net/world/0360ce.htm#div-1919. Comparison between heavens and the Pure Land
[Chinese Source Text]
佛告阿難。汝言是也。計如帝王。雖人中尊貴形色端正。比之轉輪聖王。甚爲鄙陋。猶彼乞人在帝王邊。轉輪聖王威相殊妙天下第一。比忉利天王。又復醜惡不得相喻。萬億倍也。假令天帝比第六天王。百千億倍不相類也。設第六天王。比無量壽佛國菩薩聲聞。光顏容色不相及逮。百千萬億不可計倍
The Buddha said to Ānanda, "What you say is true. Even though a king is the noblest of all men and has a regal countenance, if he is compared with a wheel-turning monarch, he will appear as base and inferior as a beggar beside a king. Likewise, however excellent and unrivaled the majestic appearance of such a monarch may be, [272a] if he is compared with the lord of the Heaven of the Thirty-three Gods, he will also appear incomparably inferior, even ten thousands koṭīs of times more so. Again, if this heavenly lord is compared with the lord of the Sixth Heaven, he will appear a hundred thousand koṭīs of times inferior. If the lord of the Sixth Heaven is compared with a bodhisattva or a śrāvaka dwelling in the land of Amitāyus, his countenance and appearance will be far from matching those of the bodhisattva or śrāvaka, being a thousand million koṭīs of times or even incalculable times inferior."
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20. Pleasures in the Pure Land
[Chinese Source Text]
佛告阿難。無量壽國其諸天人。衣服飮食華香瓔珞。諸蓋幢幡微妙音聲。所居舍宅宮殿樓閣。稱其形色高下大小。或一寶二寶。乃至無量衆寶。隨意所欲應念卽至。又以衆寶妙衣遍布其地。一切人天踐之而行。無量寶網彌覆佛上。皆以金縷眞珠百千雜寶奇妙珍異。莊嚴絞飾周匝四面。垂以寶鈴。光色晃曜盡極嚴麗。
The Buddha said to Ānanda, "devas and humans in the land of Amitāyus are each provided with robes, food and drink, flowers, perfume, ornaments, silken canopies and banners, and are surrounded by exquisite sounds. Their abodes, palaces, and pavilions are exactly in accordance with the size of their bodies. One, two or even innumerable jewels appear before them, as soon as they wish. In addition, beautiful jeweled fabric covers the ground where all the devas and humans walk. In that Buddha-land there are innumerable jeweled nets, all adorned with skeins of gold thread, pearls, and a hundred thousand kinds of rare and marvelous treasures. All around the nets hang jeweled bells of the utmost beauty, which shine brilliantly."
[Chinese Source Text]
自然德風徐起微動。其風調和不寒不暑。溫涼柔軟不遲不疾。吹諸羅網及衆寶樹。演發無量微妙法音。流布萬種溫雅德香。其有聞者塵勞垢習自然不起。風觸其身皆得快樂。譬如比丘得滅盡三昧。
When a natural breeze of virtue arises and gently blows, it is moderate in temperature, neither cold nor hot, refreshing and soft to the senses, and moves neither too slowly nor too quickly. When the breeze wafts over the nets and the various jeweled trees, countless excellent sounds of the Dharma are heard, and ten thousand kinds of delicate fragrances of virtue are diffused. If one smells those fragrances, one's impurities and passions spontaneously cease to arise. If touched by the breeze itself, one enjoys the same pleasure as a monk who has entered the samādhi of Extinction.
While I can't say anything really useful about Wong Kiew Kit as a kung fu/qigong teacher, I find his book about Pure Land quite interesting. His approach seemed genuine to me and this book played a significant role in my conversion to Pure Land Buddhism as he makes an effort to show how there may be good reasons to think that Pure Land is not just an imaginary object of blind faith. When one is sometimes disconcerted by the way the Mahayana traditional literature ( Sutras and commentaries) talks about Pure Land because one's cultural and religious background is totally different ( which is really the case for me), Wong Kiew Kit 's book is helpful in so far it uses modern language and references so that it can make sense.PorkChop wrote:
Wow, I'm surprised to see Wong Kiew Kit writing a book on Buddhism.
I've known about him for a long, long time from the kung fu world, where his reputation is somewhat mixed, though mostly positive.
My curiosity's piqued, adding it to my wishlist in case it gets back in stock.
Definitely going to have to check that one out!PLB wrote:While I can't say anything really useful about Wong Kiew Kit as a kung fu/qigong teacher, I find his book about Pure Land quite interesting. His approach seemed genuine to me and this book played a significant role in my conversion to Pure Land Buddhism as he makes an effort to show how there may be good reasons to think that Pure Land is not just an imaginary object of blind faith. When one is sometimes disconcerted by the way the Mahayana traditional literature ( Sutras and commentaries) talks about Pure Land because one's cultural and religious background is totally different ( which is really the case for me), Wong Kiew Kit 's book is helpful in so far it uses modern language and references so that it can make sense.PorkChop wrote:
Wow, I'm surprised to see Wong Kiew Kit writing a book on Buddhism.
I've known about him for a long, long time from the kung fu world, where his reputation is somewhat mixed, though mostly positive.
My curiosity's piqued, adding it to my wishlist in case it gets back in stock.
As far as I know, the book will be published again in 2013.
zamotcr wrote:I am wondering about the Big Bang theory as origin of the universe and the Pure Lands. If the pure lands started eons of eons ago, wouldn't this mean that some pure lands existed before the big bang?
Or they all started after the big bang? Remember that science thinks that the universe has 13.700.000.000 year of existence.
If you're going to follow the cosmology, you might want to start with the first one that was introduced:zamotcr wrote:I am wondering about the Big Bang theory as origin of the universe and the Pure Lands. If the pure lands started eons of eons ago, wouldn't this mean that some pure lands existed before the big bang?
Or they all started after the big bang? Remember that science thinks that the universe has 13.700.000.000 year of existence.