Trikaya (Buddha's 3 Bodies), Pure Land

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LastLegend
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Trikaya (Buddha's 3 Bodies), Pure Land

Post by LastLegend »

Buddha's have 3 bodies. Dharmakaya (Dharma body). Sambhogakāya (Reward of Enjoyment Body). Nirmaṇakāya (Manifestation Body).

Dharmakaya (Dharma body) is the nature, emptiness, non-separation between appearance and mind, dependent origination, and Buddhadharma itself. "He who sees the Dharma sees the Tathagata, he who sees the Tathagata sees the Dharma."

Because of Dharmakaya non-separation between appearance mind, within nature there is Sambhogokaya (the Reward or Enjoyment body). Through completion of Bodhisattva practice toward Buddhahood, Sambhogokaya will appear. Or through true realization of emptiness, Sambhogokaya will appear.

The three bodies are non-separated because the nature of appearance and mind is non-separated. If separated, this is due to false understanding/delusion (in the case of heavenly beings, some realms have mind only). Since the true nature of appearance and mind are non-separated, Pure Land is the manifestation of Sambhogokaya + Nirmanakaya of Dharmakaya. Dharmakaya is always present (even at many different places at once) and non-separated from the other 2 bodies. If understand 3 bodies, will understand Pure Land.

The Six Patriarch, The pure Dharmakaya is your nature; the perfect Sambhogakaya is your wisdom; the myriad Nirmanakayas are your activities.

Look no further than within nature, from nature will have Sambhogokaya and Nirmanakaya; cultivate wisdom is cultivate Sambhogakaya (for example).

Linjii, Do you wish to be not different from the Buddhas and patriarchs? Then just do not look for anything outside. The pure light of your own heart [i.e., 心, mind] at this instant is the Dharmakaya Buddha in your own house. The non-differentiating light of your heart at this instant is the Sambhogakaya Buddha in your own house. The non-discriminating light of your own heart at this instant is the Nirmanakaya Buddha in your own house. This trinity of the Buddha's body is none other than he here before your eyes, listening to my expounding the Dharma.
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Re: Trikaya (Buddha's 3 Bodies), Pure Land

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I'm not sure all Buddhas have three bodies. Some, like Vairocana, are identified with only two (Sambhoga-kaya and Dharmakaya) or one (dharmakaya) (depending on which scripture you consult).

Notwithstanding, why associate the Trikaya teachings with Amitabha? Why not Gautama who appeared in this world in response to the causes and conditions of this world? Is there scriptural basis for this association with Amitabha?
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
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Re: Trikaya (Buddha's 3 Bodies), Pure Land

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Queequeg wrote:I'm not sure all Buddhas have three bodies. Some, like Vairocana, are identified with only two (Sambhoga-kaya and Dharmakaya) or one (dharmakaya) (depending on which scripture you consult).
Manifestation is like an ability within nature. Bodies/appearances/forms
are within nature to be manifested. If there are no bodies/appearances/forms, nothing changed or manifested.
Notwithstanding, why associate the Trikaya teachings with Amitabha? Why not Gautama who appeared in this world in response to the causes and conditions of this world? Is there scriptural basis for this association with Amitabha?
All Buddhas are said to have Trikaya.

I think to understand Pure Land, it is important to understand Trikaya. I have no scriptural basis for that, consider it my opinion :D . You are welcome to present an understanding of your own with scriptural basis if you want.
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Re: Trikaya (Buddha's 3 Bodies), Pure Land

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LastLegend wrote:
Queequeg wrote:I'm not sure all Buddhas have three bodies. Some, like Vairocana, are identified with only two (Sambhoga-kaya and Dharmakaya) or one (dharmakaya) (depending on which scripture you consult).
Manifestation is like an ability within nature. Bodies/appearances/forms
are within nature to be manifested. If there are no bodies/appearances/forms, nothing changed or manifested.
If Trikaya is common to all Buddhas, where is the Nirmanakaya of Amitabha? or Aksobhya, for that matter? Or Bhaisajyaguru? The only Nirmanakaya associated with these Buddhas that I can verify are images whose eyes have been opened as these Buddhas.

Gautama, on the other hand, we are reasonably certain appeared in this Saha world and engaged with others for the benefit of us beings; we may even have his bona fide relics (nirmanakaya).

Why direct your energies to a Buddha of uncertain reality, at least in this Saha world when a bona fide Buddha has appeared here in this world in response to the causes and conditions of this world; who revealed this Saha world to be his Pure Land?
You are welcome to present an understanding of your own with scriptural basis if you want.
I respectfully decline at this time. I want to understand your views.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Trikaya (Buddha's 3 Bodies), Pure Land

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Queequeg wrote:
If Trikaya is common to all Buddhas, where is the Nirmanakaya of Amitabha? or Aksobhya, for that matter? Or Bhaisajyaguru? The only Nirmanakaya associated with these Buddhas that I can verify are images whose eyes have been opened as these Buddhas.
Dude, I have never met Sakymuni Buddha in flesh and meat. I really don't know where Sakymuni is now or what form he manifests to guide sentient beings. Maybe a politician, a cat, or a dog.
Why direct your energies to a Buddha of uncertain reality, at least in this Saha world when a bona fide Buddha has appeared here in this world in response to the causes and conditions of this world; who revealed this Saha world to be his Pure Land?
You know of Sakymuni Buddha of certain reality? How?

There are Pure Land sutras introduced by Sakymuni as skillful means to lead sentient beings towards Buddhahood via rebirth in Pure Land. Unless you think they are fabricated, then be ready to defend yourself :lol: (not from me) from other Pure Landers.
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Re: Trikaya (Buddha's 3 Bodies), Pure Land

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Queequeg wrote:If Trikaya is common to all Buddhas, where is the Nirmanakaya of Amitabha?
Amitabha himself is the nirmanakaya, Amitayus is the sambogakaya. Sukhavati is a nirmanakaya pure land.
Why direct your energies to a Buddha of uncertain reality, at least in this Saha world when a bona fide Buddha has appeared here in this world in response to the causes and conditions of this world
Because Shakyamuni personally spoke of and advocated practicing pure land.
[When Shakyamuni]... revealed this Saha world to be his Pure Land?
Vulture's Peak is Shakyamuni's pure land according to the Lotus Sutra.
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Re: Trikaya (Buddha's 3 Bodies), Pure Land

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Nirmanakaya is the manifestion. It can be a cat or dog or tree. It's the ability to appear in different forms.
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Re: Trikaya (Buddha's 3 Bodies), Pure Land

Post by 明安 Myoan »

Queequeg, could you explain further what you mean by "a Buddha of uncertain reality"?

If I understood correctly, for me at least Amitabha is a daily experienced reality, whereas I've never enjoyed such a relationship with the historical Gautama, or other deities. The nature of one's relationship with Amitabha will determine one's awareness of his various manifestations in space/time, won't it?

I admit I had to look up what a Nirmanakaya was, so I may be saying nonsense :rolleye:
In my opinion, the Nirmanakaya of Amitabha is none other than the functioning and manifestation of Other-Power. This is the varied display of Amitabha's compassion in daily life: this body which functions for a while, this mind which can think, the teachings themselves, the nembutsu generously provided by countless past teachers, even the shoes I wear... One's whole life is freely given, and I feel that this gift is the Nirmanakaya of Amitabha. Were Amitabha a fleshy body, the scope of his help might be more influenced by his specific coordinates in space/time, like the Dalai Lama. However, Amitabha to me has what I might call a "faith body", so he can reach deeply into my mind and body, and instantaneously save such a foolish person. Inside and outside, happy and sad, blind and seeing, there is Amitabha.

Given this unity of Amitabha's unconditional compassion unfolding in myriad forms in the life of the devotee (Nirmanakaya), the experience of this faith and renunciation as the effortless provision of the dharma (Dharmakaya), and the bliss of true entrusting (Sambhogakaya), all of which intermingle in a dynamic way, it seems to me the Trikaya can simply be another way to describe the experience of a Pure Land devotee.

I only just learned what those three terms are :tongue: so I hope their use wasn't too offensive to our resident experts.
I also hope I didn't seriously misunderstand your posts, Queequeg.
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Re: Trikaya (Buddha's 3 Bodies), Pure Land

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LastLegend wrote:Dude, I have never met Sakymuni Buddha in flesh and meat. I really don't know where Sakymuni is now or what form he manifests to guide sentient beings. Maybe a politician, a cat, or a dog...

There are Pure Land sutras introduced by Sakymuni as skillful means to lead sentient beings towards Buddhahood via rebirth in Pure Land. Unless you think they are fabricated, then be ready to defend yourself :lol: (not from me) from other Pure Landers.
I have no opinion on whether they are fabricated or authentic.

You are uncertain of the Buddha Gautama's appearance, but in the next breath you assert the validity of teachings attributed to him? Am I understanding correctly?

If you understand what the Buddha means by skillful means, and you know these sutras to be skillful means, please explain the rational for relying on them. I've read about Pure Land, but I've never actually asked a Pure Land Buddhist about these issues, so I am curious. Please indulge me.
Mother's Lap wrote: Amitabha himself is the nirmanakaya, Amitayus is the sambogakaya. Sukhavati is a nirmanakaya pure land.
Can you point to me where this teaching comes from?
Vulture's Peak is Shakyamuni's pure land according to the Lotus Sutra.
That is not entirely accurate.
Lotus Sutra, Chapter 16
For innumerable kalpas
I have constantly resided
On Mount Gṛdhrakūṭa and elsewhere.
When sentient beings see themselves
Amidst a conflagration
At the end of a kalpa,
It is in fact my tranquil land,
Always full of devas and humans.
Notwithstanding, Vulture Peak is an actual place in this world; you can go there.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Trikaya (Buddha's 3 Bodies), Pure Land

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Queequeg wrote:
You are uncertain of the Buddha Gautama's appearance, but in the next breath you assert the validity of teachings attributed to him? Am I understanding correctly?
I can't deny that. I believe in his teachings including his introduction to Pure Land sutras. The validity of his teachings depends on your experience.
If you understand what the Buddha means by skillful means, and you know these sutras to be skillful means, please explain the rational for relying on them. I've read about Pure Land, but I've never actually asked a Pure Land Buddhist about these issues, so I am curious. Please indulge me.
Because I believe, and it does not contradict Mahayana doctrine. What rational reason for relying on Dharma? Do you know it with certainty?
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Re: Trikaya (Buddha's 3 Bodies), Pure Land

Post by Losal Samten »

Queequeg wrote:
Mother's Lap wrote: Amitabha himself is the nirmanakaya, Amitayus is the sambogakaya. Sukhavati is a nirmanakaya pure land.
Can you point to me where this teaching comes from?
It's standard Tibetan Vajrayana discourse. The interchangability of Amitabha/Amitayus today is found in the East Asian teachings alongside the variance in the teachings of the kayas.

The outline of Tibetan Vajrayana kaya classification:

One pays homage to Amitabha's mind, residing in a nirmanakaya form. In the text, it describes Amitabha as nirmanakaya, sambhogakaya or dharmakaya. These 3 are simply different aspects of forms. Each kaya has 3 different facets. For example, the dharmakaya of dharmakaya is Buddha Samantabhadra; the sambhogakaya of dharmakaya is Vajradhara; the nirmanakayas of dharmakaya are the 5 lords of the buddha-families. So, Amitabha, as head of the Lotus family, is classified here as nirmanakaya. The dharmakaya of sambhogakaya is Vajradhara; the sambhogakaya of sambhogakaya is Vairochana Gangchentso; the nirmanakaya of sambhogakaya is Sakyamuni Buddha. The dharmakaya of nirmanakaya is Amitabha; the sambhogakaya of nirmanakaya is Chenrezig; the nirmanakaya of nirmanakaya is Guru Rinpoche. So, here, Amitabha is the dharmakaya.
http://www.purifymind.com/Amitabha.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Vulture's Peak is Shakyamuni's pure land according to the Lotus Sutra.
That is not entirely accurate.
Lotus Sutra, Chapter 16
For innumerable kalpas
I have constantly resided
On Mount Gṛdhrakūṭa and elsewhere.
When sentient beings see themselves
Amidst a conflagration
At the end of a kalpa,
It is in fact my tranquil land,
Always full of devas and humans.
Notwithstanding, Vulture Peak is an actual place in this world; you can go there.
Elsewhere means just that, it doesn't mean this planet or even world system. The Potala Palace is also a real location, but that doesn't qualify it as an ideal place for fulfilling samyaksambuddhahood without access to its sambogakaya function which isn't possible for most people unlike Amitabha's nirmanakaya realm.
http://buddhisma2z.com/content.php?id=317" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Last edited by Losal Samten on Wed Aug 20, 2014 9:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Trikaya (Buddha's 3 Bodies), Pure Land

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I want to point out that Dharmakaya is not a thing or mind only. If so, it would contradict dependent origination. Within appearance, there is mind. Within mind there is appearance, when manifesting there is appearance/form/bodies. That is the nature of emptiness. Dharmakaya itself is the Dharma. If you disagree, consider it my opinion.
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Re: Trikaya (Buddha's 3 Bodies), Pure Land

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duckfiasco wrote:Queequeg, could you explain further what you mean by "a Buddha of uncertain reality"?
Yes, sorry. Buddhas such as Amitabha/Amitayus, Bhaisajyaraja, Aksobhya, Vairocana, etc. cannot be traced to a historical personage in this world. In contrast, Gautama was a historical person, at least scholarly opinion generally agrees on that and Buddhists accept this regardless of scholarly opinion; at least I think the vast majority of us do. That is the distinction I am pointing to Buddha's whose origin is in a text, and those whose origin was a historical person.
If I understood correctly, for me at least Amitabha is a daily experienced reality, whereas I've never enjoyed such a relationship with the historical Gautama, or other deities. The nature of one's relationship with Amitabha will determine one's awareness of his various manifestations in space/time, won't it?...

In my opinion, the Nirmanakaya of Amitabha is none other than the functioning and manifestation of Other-Power. This is the varied display of Amitabha's compassion in daily life: this body which functions for a while, this mind which can think, the teachings themselves, the nembutsu generously provided by countless past teachers, even the shoes I wear... One's whole life is freely given, and I feel that this gift is the Nirmanakaya of Amitabha. Were Amitabha a fleshy body, the scope of his help might be more influenced by his specific coordinates in space/time, like the Dalai Lama. However, Amitabha to me has what I might call a "faith body", so he can reach deeply into my mind and body, and instantaneously save such a foolish person. Inside and outside, happy and sad, blind and seeing, there is Amitabha.

Given this unity of Amitabha's unconditional compassion unfolding in myriad forms in the life of the devotee (Nirmanakaya), the experience of this faith and renunciation as the effortless provision of the dharma (Dharmakaya), and the bliss of true entrusting (Sambhogakaya), all of which intermingle in a dynamic way, it seems to me the Trikaya can simply be another way to describe the experience of a Pure Land devotee.
OK - Amitabha is a way in which to cast one's moment to moment experience - subject as well as object?

I recall visiting Honganji in Kyoto and being struck by a slogan on a sign on the outer wall - "Right now, Life is living you."

I accept all that you write. It still does not explain to me why the choice of Amitabha? Why not Gautama? Or Aksobhya, another form of Pure Land practice that was popular in China at one time? If we, for the sake of argument, accept that all Buddhas are possessed of the Trikaya, then Gautama could as easily be substituted for Amitabha; Gautama could be daily experienced reality. Or are you making a distinction and limiting Gautama to his flesh body Nirmanakaya?

I know the "kaya" language is new to you, so I apologize in advance for putting it in these terms. The Trikaya teachings may not be a good fit with the teachings on Amitabha. That's kind of what I'm sensing.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
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Re: Trikaya (Buddha's 3 Bodies), Pure Land

Post by Queequeg »

LastLegend wrote:What rational reason for relying on Dharma? Do you know it with certainty?
We ask Master Gotama about awakening to the truth.
Canki Sutta
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Trikaya (Buddha's 3 Bodies), Pure Land

Post by LastLegend »

QP,

Some Pure Land sects believe Sakymuni Buddha was a manifestation of Amitabha. If you ask me, I don't know.

I do think 3 kayas for Pure Landers still doubt a place of Pure Land. In your opinion, what is the point of 3 Kayas teaching? I think it makes it easy to understand the nature of phenomena in reference to the bodies. Otherwise, it can lead to the false view of nihilism that upon death there is complete extinction. Or a false view that mind is an independent entity that acts as the first cause.
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Re: Trikaya (Buddha's 3 Bodies), Pure Land

Post by DGA »

Queequeg wrote:If Trikaya is common to all Buddhas, where is the Nirmanakaya of Amitabha?
Depends who you ask. Some argue it's Avalokiteshvara. The trikaya is not so easy to pin down in East Asian Buddhism, in my opinion.
Why direct your energies to a Buddha of uncertain reality, at least in this Saha world when a bona fide Buddha has appeared here in this world in response to the causes and conditions of this world; who revealed this Saha world to be his Pure Land?
Are you asserting, in the Pure Land forum, that Amitabha is a Buddha of uncertain reality? If so, that seems disrespectful and sectarian. A bona fide Buddha, Shakyamuni, taught the Pure Land sutras as skillful means to liberate those to be liberated by the vows of Amitabha. Such good fortune!



Friendly reminder to all: Kindly refrain from using this or any forum for proselytizing. Thank you.
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Re: Trikaya (Buddha's 3 Bodies), Pure Land

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Queequeg wrote:Notwithstanding, why associate the Trikaya teachings with Amitabha?
Actually he didn't, he just said "Pure Land" and as you know, Amitabha is not the only Buddha with a Pure Land.
Queequeg wrote:Why not Gautama who appeared in this world in response to the causes and conditions of this world?
What makes you think that they are substantially different?
Can you provide a scriptural basis for this?
Don't you claim to follow the teachings of ichinen sanzen?
By ichinen sanzen, how is locality an issue?

It might be interesting to note that some Pure Land schools look at Gautama as the Nirmanakaya and Amitabha as the Samboghakaya (or Dharmakaya - depending on the school). Of course, the scriptural answer your earlier question about the Nirmanakayas is that all the Buddhas you mentioned are the culminations of the careers of specific Bodhisattvas, each named in his own sutra(s). However, surely once one becomes a Buddha, the idea of a self-identity no longer exists, so it's rather odd that there'd be such distinction.
Queequeg wrote:Is there scriptural basis for this association with Amitabha?
Yes, the Lankavatara - as there isn't much trikaya expounded in scripture outside of that...
Lankavatara wrote:Then said Mahamati: Blessed one, you speak of the sameness of all Buddhas, but in other places you have spoken of Dharmata-Buddha, Nishyanda-Buddha and Nirmana-Buddha as though they were different from each other; how can they be the same and yet different?

The Blessed One replied: I speak of the different Buddhas as opposed to the views of the philosophers who base their
teachings on the reality of an external world of from and who cherish discrimination and attachments arising therefrom;
against the teachings of these philosophers I disclose the Nirmana-Buddha, the Buddha of Transformations. In the many
transformations of the Tathagata stage, the Nirmana-Buddha establishes such matters as charity, morality, patience,
thoughtfulness, and tranquillization: by right-knowledge he teaches the true understanding of maya-like nature of the
elements that make up personality and its external world; he teaches the true nature of the mind-system as a whole and in
the distinctions of its forms, functions and ways of performance. In a deeper sense, the Nirmana-Buddha symbolizes the
principles of differentiation and integration by reason of which all component things are distributed, all complexities
simplified, all thoughts analyzed; at the same time it symbolizes the harmonizing, unifying power of sympathy and
compassion; it removes all obstacles, it harmonizes all differences, it brings into perfect Oneness the discordant many. For
the emancipation of all beings the Bodhisattvas and Tathagatas assume bodies of transformation and employ many skilful
devices,-- this is the work of the Nirmana-Buddha.

For the enlightenment of the Bodhisattvas and their sustaining along the stages, the Inconceivable is made realizable. The
Nishyanda-Buddha, the "Out-flowing-Buddha," though Transcendental Intelligence, reveals the true meaning and
significance of appearances, discrimination, attachment; and of the power of habit-energy which is accumulated by them
and conditions them; and of the un-bornness, the emptiness, the egolessness of all things. Because of Transcendental
Intelligence and the purification of evil out-flowings of life, all dualistic self-realization of Noble Wisdom the true
Imagelessness of Reality is made manifest. The inconceivable glory of Buddhahood is made manifest in rays of Noble
Wisdom; Noble Wisdom is the self-nature of the Tathagatas. This is the work of the Nishyanda-Buddha. In a deeper sense,
the Nishyanda-Buddha symbolizes the emergence of the principles of intellection and compassion but as yet
undifferentiated and in perfect balance, potential but unmanifest. Looked at from the in-going side of the Bodhisattva,
Nishyanda-Buddha is seen in the glorified bodies of the Tathagatas; looked at from the fourth-going side of Buddhahood,
Nishyanda-Buddha is seen in the radiant personalities of the Tathagatas ready and eager to manifest the inherent Love and
Wisdom of the Dharmakaya.

Dharmata-Buddha is Buddhahood in its self-nature of perfect oneness in whom absolute Tranquility prevails. As noble
Wisdom, Dharmata-Buddha transcends all differentiated knowledge, is the goal of intuitive self-realization, and is the
self-nature of the Tathagatas. As Noble Wisdom, Dharmata-Buddha is the ultimate Principle of Reality from which all
things derive their being and truthfulness, but which in itself transcends all predicates. Dharmata-Buddha is the central sun
which holds all, illumines all. Its inconceivable Essence is made manifest in the "out-flowing" glory of Nishyanda-Buddha
and in the transformations of the Nirmana-Buddha.

...

Then said Mahamati: Pray tell us, Blessed One, more about the Dharmakaya?

The Blessed One replied: We have been speaking of it in terms of Buddhahood, but it is inscrutable and beyond predicate
we may just as well speak of it as the Truth-body, or the Truth-principle of ultimate Reality (Paramartha). This Ultimate
Principle of Reality may be considered as it is manifested under seven aspects: First, as Citta-gocara, it is the world of
spiritual experience and the abode of the Tathagatas on their outgoing mission of emancipation. It is Noble Wisdom
manifested as the principle of irradiancy and individuation. Second, as Jnana, it is the mind-world and its principle of the
intellection and consciousness. Third as Dristi, it is the realm of dualism which is the physical world of birth and death
wherein are manifested all the differentiation, desire, attachment and suffering.

Fourth, because of the greed, anger, infatuation, suffering and need of the physical world incident to discrimination and
attachment, it reveals a world beyond the realm of dualism wherein it appears as the integrating principle of charity and
sympathy. Fifth, in a realm still higher, which is the abode of the Bodhisattva stages, and is analogous to the mind-world,
where the interests of hear transcend those of the mind, it appears as the principle of compassion and self-giving, Sixth, in
the spiritual realm where the Bodhisattvas attain Buddhahood, it appears as the principle of perfect Love (Karuna). Here
the last clinging to an ego-self is abandoned and the Bodhisattva enters into his realization of noble Wisdom which is the
bliss of the Tathagata’s perfect enjoyment of his inmost nature. Seventh as Prajna it is the active aspect of the Ultimate
Principle wherein both the forth-going and the in-coming principles are alike implicit and potential, and wherein both
Wisdom and Love are in perfect balance, harmony and the Oneness.

These are the seven aspects of the ultimate Principle of the Dharmakaya, by reason of which all things are made manifest
and perfected and then reintegrated, and all remaining within its inscrutable Oneness, with no signs of individuation, nor
beginning, nor succession, nor ending, We speak of it as Dharmakaya, as Ultimate Principle, as Buddhahood, as Nirvana;
what matters it? They are only other names for Noble-Wisdom.

Mahamati, you and all Bodhisattva-Mahasattvas should avoid the erroneous reasoning of the philosophers and seek for
self-realization of Noble Wisdom.
Queequeg wrote:Why direct your energies to a Buddha of uncertain reality,
Interesting that you would make this statement when you claim to uphold the Lotus Sutra. It's commonly accepted across almost all other Mahayana traditions that the Amitayus mentioned in Chapters 7 and 23 of the Lotus Sutra is the same Amitayus of the Pure Land Sutras. Casting doubt on its contents is an awfully interesting way of upholding a Sutra.

I think what he was trying to say was: if a certain reality is a requirement then why direct energies to any Buddha at all?
Certainly there's is very little about any Buddha or any sutra that we can verify with any certainty. It's a matter of faith, particularly faith in the teachings. I would speculate that you think that the teachings rely on some sort of externally verifiable truth, which is why you see no point in directing these energies. As stated in the sutras quote above, the idea of an external reality is a view cherished by other (non-Mahayana) philosophers. You also seem to fail to realize that for many of us, we've already verified these teachings via subjective truth. They've already proven themselves, regardless if the Buddha in question is a million miles away, or if he was someone who lived 2,500 years ago, on a far away continent, speaking a language we've never heard. In either case, locality is so far separated from my daily experience as to make that a moot point anyway.

Re: Skillful Means
It may also be important to point out that not every school looks at "skillful means" the same way you guys do (as something to be discarded). Sure, there's "discarding the provisional to reveal the true" but that was mostly in regards to non-Mahayana doctrine. The single practice schools of course made claims to keep their followers from doubting the method, but *most* cautioned against taking any of the other schools to task over such claims. There's also the idea that any sutras are merely a "skillful means" for representing ultimate truth (aka the Dharmakaya) with words. Perhaps your conditioning has taught you that a Buddha can have a "questionable reality" and therefor should be discarded in favor of a bunch of relics; but for the rest of us who've already recognized the subjective truth of these teachings, "questionable reality" is a non-issue because we know that the sutras are talking about something that can't be put into words, let alone a fancy carrying case for display at the local museum.
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LastLegend
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Re: Trikaya (Buddha's 3 Bodies), Pure Land

Post by LastLegend »

Queequeg wrote:
LastLegend wrote:What rational reason for relying on Dharma? Do you know it with certainty?
We ask Master Gotama about awakening to the truth.
Canki Sutta
Can you explain clearly in a few sentence please? What truth are you talking about and that you are reaching for?
It’s eye blinking.
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Re: Trikaya (Buddha's 3 Bodies), Pure Land

Post by DGA »

Queequeg wrote:It still does not explain to me why the choice of Amitabha? Why not Gautama? Or Aksobhya, another form of Pure Land practice that was popular in China at one time?
This is the devotional practice that history has vetted. Great masters such as Tendai Daishi (Chih-i) advocated for its benefits. Nembutsu is arguably the most popular Buddhist practice now, or ever. Amitabha devotion is common to mainstream Mahayana traditions in all cultures (the late Kalu Rinpoche, for instance, praised Japanese Pure Land as an excellent form of practice). That's the short answer: it's particularly appealing and accessible, so people go for it.

There are other Pure Land practices too; you'll find Tibetans who pray to be reborn in Zangdokpalri, the Pure Land of Padmasambhava (also associated with Amitabha).

I think the question "why this?" is more productive than "why not these other things?" in this instance.
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Re: Trikaya (Buddha's 3 Bodies), Pure Land

Post by Queequeg »

Mother's Lap wrote: It's standard Tibetan Vajrayana discourse. The interchangability of Amitabha/Amitayus today is found in the East Asian teachings alongside the variance in the teachings of the kayas.
I admit, its been a while since I read the three Pure Land Sutras. I appreciate that there is commentary asserting these things, but the thing about commentary is that you have to accept them to accept them. Regardless of what commentary say, I think the standard approach is to defer to scripture. Can you direct me to passages in scripture that support the commentary?
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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