Are you ready to go?

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plwk
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Are you ready to go?

Post by plwk »

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Here's what this thread is on...
Firstly, the Elder Master Jìng Kōng cites the Āryasukhāvatīvyūhanāmamahāyānasūtra...
“Śāriputra, if those sons and daughters of good family hear the name of the Bhagavān Tathāgata Amitāyus and keep it in mind unwaveringly for one, two, three, four, five, six, or seven nights, when the hour of their death arrives, they will depart in an undeluded state.

After they have passed away, the Tathāgata Amitābha will stand before them, entirely surrounded by a śrāvaka assembly and accompanied by a congregation of bodhisattvas. These sons and daughters of good family will be born in the Sukhāvatī world, the buddha realm of the Bhagavān Tathāgata Amitābha.

Therefore, Śāriputra, having seen its real point, sons and daughters of good family, I declare, ought to respectfully make prayers to reach that buddha realm.


I don't see anywhere in the above verse that hints about any indication on the ability of self mastery over one's lifespan specifically, do you?
Other than the certitude of corresponding birth in Sukhāvatī from a directed mind at the end of one's lifespan as a result of consistent practice of buddhānusmṛti, it doesn't seem to suggest what the Elder Master is suggesting. Of course, there is also the possibility of some obtaining a supramundane ability over one's lifespan but that is not unknown nor impossible in general Buddha Dharma teaching & practice and to even non Buddhists?
What do you think?

Secondly, I would personally agree with the Elder Master on the sticky topic of suicide with some reservations but his views on it would be interestingly contrasted with for example here and here plus the famed self immolation of the late Venerable Thích Quảng Đức whose last actions were fingering his mala and reciting Nam mô A di đà Phật before he went up flames in such 'calmness'? Like some of those disciples of Ippen Shōnin, could one then also justify suicide as a method to hasten one's place amongst the Nine Lotus Grades for those lacking the premonition & self mastery over one's lifespan ability?

Or could the answer lie in the Lord's own words here
‘Sariputta, there may be the families of Venerable Channa’s friends, well-wishers and earlier relatives, I say, there is no fault to that extent.
Sariputta, if someone gives up this body and seizes another, I say it is a fault. In the bhikkhu that fault is not apparent.
Bhikkhu Channa took his life faultlessly.’

What thinkest thou?
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Re: Are you ready to go?

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plwk wrote:Firstly, the Elder Master Jìng Kōng cites the Āryasukhāvatīvyūhanāmamahāyānasūtra...
“Śāriputra, if those sons and daughters of good family hear the name of the Bhagavān Tathāgata Amitāyus and keep it in mind unwaveringly for one, two, three, four, five, six, or seven nights, when the hour of their death arrives, they will depart in an undeluded state.

After they have passed away, the Tathāgata Amitābha will stand before them, entirely surrounded by a śrāvaka assembly and accompanied by a congregation of bodhisattvas. These sons and daughters of good family will be born in the Sukhāvatī world, the buddha realm of the Bhagavān Tathāgata Amitābha.

Therefore, Śāriputra, having seen its real point, sons and daughters of good family, I declare, ought to respectfully make prayers to reach that buddha realm.
Wow, Luis Gomez' book "The Land of Bliss" has translations of this sutra from the Sanskrit & the Chinese. Both versions talk about the moment of death and the moments leading up to death. This is probably the only translation I've seen that says "After they have passed away" for the appearance of Amitabha and the assembly. Provides a different way of looking at the passage...
plwk wrote:I don't see anywhere in the above verse that hints about any indication on the ability of self mastery over one's lifespan specifically, do you?
Nope. Plenty of stories about Amitabha appearing and letting someone know when their time was coming up, but aside from the Sukhavati-related Phowa practices in Tibet, nothing that would indicate such was possible - or at least a goal of practice.
plwk wrote:Other than the certitude of corresponding birth in Sukhāvatī from a directed mind at the end of one's lifespan as a result of consistent practice of buddhānusmṛti, it doesn't seem to suggest what the Elder Master is suggesting.
Yes, this is the first I've heard of the 3 year training. Of course if it was that much of a rush, the Pratyutpanna Samadhi would only take 3 months or so, assuming one could garner the necessary concentration & the necessities for facilitating the practice.
plwk wrote:Of course, there is also the possibility of some obtaining a supramundane ability over one's lifespan but that is not unknown nor impossible in general Buddha Dharma teaching & practice and to even non Buddhists?
Yes, plenty examples of this outside of the Pure Land school.
plwk wrote:What do you think?
When it comes to being able to end one's life early, spiritually or physically three examples come to mind. Two of them were students of Honen. The first was Ryukan, who manifested the sweet smells, heavenly flowers, and other signs - but didn't die at that time. The second is Saburo Tamemori who was so desperate to go to the Pure Land that he cut his own guts out. Another example that you touched on was Ikkyu who started the whole practice of riding in a rowboat out to sea as a form of suicide. I don't see anything where Honen recommends suicide though. He was pretty clear that taking care of one's health was an auxiliary form of Pure Land practice. I think Pure Land's been criticized in the past for encouraging suicide, but I haven't seen anywhere that it is recommended by the doctrine. Of the 3 examples I listed, the one pointed out for emulation was the first, Ryukan. He could've left for the Pure Land when he wanted, but he stayed, endured exile to the eastern Kanto region, and spread the teachings. When it was his time to go, he went peacefully. So I guess I agree with Ven Chin Kung that it's better to stick around to help propagate Dharma.

The example of Ven Thích Quảng Đức could also be traced to the Lotus Sutra, Chapter 23:
Lotus Sutra, Chapter 23 wrote:"I have paid homage to the Buddha using my transcendent power. This
is, however, by no means equal to the tribute of offering my body.
"

For a full one thousand two hundred years, he inhaled the fragrance of
sandalwood, olibanum, frankincense, clove, aloeswood, and glue trees and
drank the fragrant oil of campaka flowers. He then anointed his body with
scented ointment. In the presence of the Buddha Candrasūryavimalaprabhāsaśrī
he covered his body with a divine jeweled garment and with the fragrant
oil. Through his transcendent power and vows he set his body alight,
which illuminated worlds equal in number to the sands of eighty koṭis of
Ganges Rivers. At the same time all the buddhas in these worlds praised
him,
saying:

"Splendid, splendid, O son of a virtuous family! This is the true perseverance.
This is called the true Dharma offering to the Tathāgata. It
stands no comparison, even if one were to pay tribute with flowers,
perfumes, necklaces, burning incense, scented powders, ointments,
divine silk banners, canopies, perfumes of sandalwood from the inner
seacoast of Mount Sumeru, and various other things like this. It stands
no comparison, even if one were to offer one’s kingdom or wife and
children. O son of a virtuous family, this is the supreme offering. This
is the highest and best of all offerings, because you offer the Dharma
to the Tathāgatas."

Having spoken these words, all became silent. His body was alight for
one thousand two hundred years. After this period passed, his body burned
out. Because he had paid tribute to the Dharma like this, Bodhisattva Sarva -
rūpasaṃdarśana was reborn after his death in the land of the Buddha Candra -
sūryavimalaprabhāsaśrī. He was born spontaneously, sitting cross-legged in
the house of King Vimaladatta.
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Nosta
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Re: Are you ready to go?

Post by Nosta »

I hope that suicide never be a recomendation on buddhism. That would turn buddhism and dharma in a creepy, surreal and sick thing.

As the Master Jingkong said, one should stay for the sake of others.
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Redfaery
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Re: Are you ready to go?

Post by Redfaery »

Of course, that example from the 23rd chapter should be followed with the warning that it was done by a boddhisattva, not a normal human. There was a particularly chilling tale from Classical Japan of a monk who hoped to be reborn in the Pure Land this way, and he cajoled his best friend into helping him. However, not long afterwards, he returned as a restless ghost who possessed his unfortunate friend and made him ill - and warned him to never do such a thing. The worldly regrets he'd felt in the last moments of his life had caused him to fall into a bad rebirth.
NAMO SARASWATI DEVI
Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever. - GANDHI
I am a delicate feminine flower!!!!
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Re: Are you ready to go?

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Yeah I guess there's always a risk of people turning to suicide when teaching disenchantment with the world of suffering. According to that link, 500 bhikkhus committed suicide after the Buddha taught a discourse on the foulness of the body and it wasn't the only incident.
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Losal Samten
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Re: Are you ready to go?

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PorkChop wrote:Wow, Luis Gomez' book "The Land of Bliss" has translations of this sutra from the Sanskrit & the Chinese. Both versions talk about the moment of death and the moments leading up to death. This is probably the only translation I've seen that says "After they have passed away" for the appearance of Amitabha and the assembly. Provides a different way of looking at the passage...
Is that the translation of both Chinese and Sanskrit versions? Are the originals also included with the translations? It would be interesting to see if he was putting his own bias into the reading of the text.
Lacking mindfulness, we commit every wrong. - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔
ཨོཾ་ཧ་ནུ་པྷ་ཤ་བྷ་ར་ཧེ་ཡེ་སྭཱ་ཧཱ།།
ཨཱོཾ་མ་ཏྲི་མུ་ཡེ་སལེ་འདུ།།
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Losal Samten
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Re: Are you ready to go?

Post by Losal Samten »

Whoops, were you just referring to the Jing Kong quote and not Gomez?
Lacking mindfulness, we commit every wrong. - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔
ཨོཾ་ཧ་ནུ་པྷ་ཤ་བྷ་ར་ཧེ་ཡེ་སྭཱ་ཧཱ།།
ཨཱོཾ་མ་ཏྲི་མུ་ཡེ་སལེ་འདུ།།
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Re: Are you ready to go?

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Mother's Lap wrote:Whoops, were you just referring to the Jing Kong quote and not Gomez?
Yes, Chin Kung's quote (sorry for alternate spelling) and not Gomez.

but in answer to your questions:
Mother's Lap wrote:Is that the translation of both Chinese and Sanskrit versions?
Yes, it's the translation of both Chinese & Sanskrit versions.
Mother's Lap wrote:Are the originals also included with the translations?
No, the originals are not also included. In fact, the translations are considered "free translations", meaning they don't have as many footnotes as a formal translation would normally have.
Mother's Lap wrote:It would be interesting to see if he was putting his own bias into the reading of the text.
He claims the work is academic and not religious in nature, but this is definitely a possibility. He gives a lot of commentary about the translation process & the context for each of the translations. Some of his thoughts aren't really in line with some of the teachings of the Pure Land schools (hard to go into in more depth without spending a lot of time re-reading the book). One example that I can point to is that in the footnotes he references some works by WT deBary from the late 60s. I know deBary had some very strange (not historically-founded) ideas about Pure Land history such as Shinran's marriage (in 1210) being the instigating factor behind the Nembutsu ban and the exiles of Honen & Shinran by former emperor Go-Toba (in 1207). He was part of an academic movement that was very keen to poke holes in traditional narratives, sometimes in light of contradictory evidence (ie evidence refuting their hypotheses).
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Losal Samten
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Re: Are you ready to go?

Post by Losal Samten »

Cheers mate!
Lacking mindfulness, we commit every wrong. - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔
ཨོཾ་ཧ་ནུ་པྷ་ཤ་བྷ་ར་ཧེ་ཡེ་སྭཱ་ཧཱ།།
ཨཱོཾ་མ་ཏྲི་མུ་ཡེ་སལེ་འདུ།།
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