What a Pure Land truly is?

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Ambrosius80
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What a Pure Land truly is?

Post by Ambrosius80 »

I would like to know your opinion on what form does a Pure Land exists. Some state that a Pure Land is only created inside the mind, others that it only exists as a plane of existence where one goes after death. Some combine the two views syncretistically. Still, there are some who say that a Pure Land is neither, since mind and place equal concepts, and that it is a realm created by the mind similarly to how the hells are created both in this life and after it.

My teacher believes similarly as I do; that the Pure Lands are neither places separated of the rest of the universe nor merely abstract concepts of the mind, but something in between. My own school combines both still-sitting and nianfo, and I would like to ask particularly those whose school only focuses on Pure Land practices and Pure Land sutras on how do you interpret the existence of the Pure Lands?
"What we have now is the best. He who can never be satisfied is a poor man, no matter how much he owns.

What you have results from karmic causes that you created, and what you'll gain hinges on karmic causes that you're creating."
-Master Sheng Yen
Jeff
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Re: What a Pure Land truly is?

Post by Jeff »

Pure lands are based in/created by a Buddha. In essence, you could say a product of buddhamind. The manifest as the flowing wisdom in the awareness "bubble" of the Buddha.
Admin_PC
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Re: What a Pure Land truly is?

Post by Admin_PC »

Ambrosius80 wrote:My teacher believes similarly as I do; that the Pure Lands are neither places separated of the rest of the universe nor merely abstract concepts of the mind, but something in between. My own school combines both still-sitting and nianfo, and I would like to ask particularly those whose school only focuses on Pure Land practices and Pure Land sutras on how do you interpret the existence of the Pure Lands?
I'd say you and your teacher sound about in the ballpark. Some of the other interpretations sound a little shady. Pure Lands being seen as a concept of the mind only applies as much as our day to day world is a concept of the mind. The definition of Samsara is the world created by grasping, aversion, and ignorance (all dealing with the mind) - so even the most "external" of Pure Land concepts would have to accept this. Pure Land doctrine is couched in Mahayana thought and the teachings of Emptiness. Emptiness is referenced multiple times throughout the Larger Sukhavati Sutra. In that sense, due to all conditioned phenomena being empty (remember a Pure Land is conditioned by a Buddha) the idea of "existence" (of something inherently, permanently existing) does not occur to one in regards to Pure Land. On the other hand, since our current Sahā World is just as much shaped by the concepts of our mind (greed, anger, ignorance), the idea of "non existence" (being something one doesn't experience) doesn't occur to one in regards to Pure Land. Long story short, it's definitely something that we can experience and not a fairy tale, but at the same time, thinking in terms of an independent phenomenological/material reality that exists apart from mind isn't right either (and isn't right about our own world). I hope that clears it up?
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LastLegend
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Re: What a Pure Land truly is?

Post by LastLegend »

The biggest hang up is when we imagine Pure Land to be separate from us. That can be resolved through analyzing the relation between mind and appearance. Mind shapes appearance and appearance shapes mind. Without appearance, where will mind be and how does mind interact/express itself? Certainly mind cannot interact with itself. Pure Land is the expressive activity of mind. Mind is the expressive activity of Pure Land.
It’s eye blinking.
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Ambrosius80
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Re: What a Pure Land truly is?

Post by Ambrosius80 »

I agree with all of you. But I wonder why so many people are incapable of understanding that originally it is the mind that creates all the realms and concepts, but at the same time those realms and concepts become as real as the physical Saha world we are living in at the moment. It says for example in the Surangama Sutra that even though the hell realms are the same to all people and are not just metaphors, they are still individually created by people's minds, and therefore do not fundamentally exist. It is interesting to think that even our own physical world is perceived differently by each and every one of us, even though we all live here together. Therefore our own world also only exists in our minds. I think this is what is meant by "the mind creates all the realms and the Pure Lands."
"What we have now is the best. He who can never be satisfied is a poor man, no matter how much he owns.

What you have results from karmic causes that you created, and what you'll gain hinges on karmic causes that you're creating."
-Master Sheng Yen
Admin_PC
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Re: What a Pure Land truly is?

Post by Admin_PC »

Ambrosius80 wrote:I agree with all of you. But I wonder why so many people are incapable of understanding that originally it is the mind that creates all the realms and concepts, but at the same time those realms and concepts become as real as the physical Saha world we are living in at the moment. It says for example in the Surangama Sutra that even though the hell realms are the same to all people and are not just metaphors, they are still individually created by people's minds, and therefore do not fundamentally exist. It is interesting to think that even our own physical world is perceived differently by each and every one of us, even though we all live here together. Therefore our own world also only exists in our minds. I think this is what is meant by "the mind creates all the realms and the Pure Lands."
:good: :twothumbsup:
My personal opinion is that I think the problem may have to do with being able to accept & grasp the teachings on karma - the idea that our volitional actions (that we mentally decide upon) of body, speech, and mind fashion our experience. We can accept the idea of causes, conditions, and effects in some cases. We accept that if we study in school we can get good grades, good grades can mean a good college, working hard in college can mean a good career and/or an expanded mind. Many of us have a hard time accepting that if we chose to be angry all the time, if we think angry thoughts, speak angry words, and rejoice in angry deeds that we fashion a reality around us that is angry and torturous.
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Nosta
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Re: What a Pure Land truly is?

Post by Nosta »

PorkChop wrote:
Ambrosius80 wrote:I agree with all of you. But I wonder why so many people are incapable of understanding that originally it is the mind that creates all the realms and concepts, but at the same time those realms and concepts become as real as the physical Saha world we are living in at the moment. It says for example in the Surangama Sutra that even though the hell realms are the same to all people and are not just metaphors, they are still individually created by people's minds, and therefore do not fundamentally exist. It is interesting to think that even our own physical world is perceived differently by each and every one of us, even though we all live here together. Therefore our own world also only exists in our minds. I think this is what is meant by "the mind creates all the realms and the Pure Lands."
:good: :twothumbsup:
My personal opinion is that I think the problem may have to do with being able to accept & grasp the teachings on karma - the idea that our volitional actions (that we mentally decide upon) of body, speech, and mind fashion our experience. We can accept the idea of causes, conditions, and effects in some cases. We accept that if we study in school we can get good grades, good grades can mean a good college, working hard in college can mean a good career and/or an expanded mind. Many of us have a hard time accepting that if we chose to be angry all the time, if we think angry thoughts, speak angry words, and rejoice in angry deeds that we fashion a reality around us that is angry and torturous.
:good:

My opinion is similar to what I have read so far. But I am much more simple and direct: Pure Land is real as Earth planet, real as my house, my body, etc. Nevertheless, I understand the duality, I understand that Mind creates everything, but I can only grasp a small part of that. I am not really aware of what Mind means, only part of it. For example, as Porkhop said, angry toughts create an angry world, and so the same for every emotions and toughts.

For me its important to see - as scriptures say - Pure Land as real. Thats something that increases my Faith and my Practice.
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Ambrosius80
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Re: What a Pure Land truly is?

Post by Ambrosius80 »

Nosta wrote:
:good:

My opinion is similar to what I have read so far. But I am much more simple and direct: Pure Land is real as Earth planet, real as my house, my body, etc. Nevertheless, I understand the duality, I understand that Mind creates everything, but I can only grasp a small part of that. I am not really aware of what Mind means, only part of it. For example, as Porkhop said, angry toughts create an angry world, and so the same for every emotions and toughts.

For me its important to see - as scriptures say - Pure Land as real. Thats something that increases my Faith and my Practice.
I think that is correct. There is a duality: the realms and the Pure Lands exist as states of mind, but they also exist as physical places in other dimensions.

Like our own world, they are existing both inside and outside the mind; outside of it they are free of all concepts and ideas, existing as such. But inside sentient beings' minds they are created by concepts and ideas, so therefore they exist only inside an individual's mind.
"What we have now is the best. He who can never be satisfied is a poor man, no matter how much he owns.

What you have results from karmic causes that you created, and what you'll gain hinges on karmic causes that you're creating."
-Master Sheng Yen
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