Random thoughts regarding Amida and Trikaya

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Admin_PC
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Random thoughts regarding Amida and Trikaya

Post by Admin_PC »

There was a similar topic on this earlier, but I thought it wasn't executed well and think it deserves a fresh start.
As far as I know, there isn't one, single, stance on Amida Buddha and which "kaya" or body he is identified with.
All Buddhas possess all the same wisdom, powers, and marks according to the sutras.
While the names bodies are rarely even mentioned altogether in sutras, it's generally recognized that all Buddhas manifest all three.
In fact, some say that the Trikaya doctrine wasn't explicitly spelled out until the Yogacarans did it in the 3rd century CE.
So finding explicit sutra references in regards to this question can be a little tricky and must rely on interpretation.

The Nirmanakaya is the transformation or manifestation body, the physical body that all beings can see.
Example: Aside from perhaps the Lotus Sutra, Shakyamuni is generally considered a supreme Nirmanakaya.

The Sambhogakaya is also called the reward body or the bliss body and can only be known by those with the right karmic conditions.
Buddhas associated with Pure Lands and fulfilling vows, such as Medicine Buddha are commonly typed as Sambhogakaya Buddhas.

The Dharmakaya is "the body of reality itself, without specific, delimited form, wherein the Buddha is identified with the spiritually charged nature of everything that is." (Reginald Ray "Secret of the Vajra World" p 13) The Dharmakaya can really only be known by Buddhas, the other 2 bodies are "simply ways in which the Dharmakaya appears to people." (Harvey, "An Introduction to Buddhism" p 169).
Vairocana is described in the Brahma Net sutra as the original body (Dharma kaya) of Shakyamuni.
The Avatamsaka (ch 3) also describes Vairocana as the samadhi that is the seed body common to all Buddhas.

When it comes to Amida, different masters held different views as to which "Buddha body" that followers should identify with Amida.

Amida as Nirmanakaya
Member Sinweiy offered this insight, which I think is common in Chinese Buddhism.
Sinweiy wrote:Amitabha is an Emanation body; the corresponding Enjoyment body is Amitayus, "infinite life"-propitiated for longevity; the Dharma body is known as Ananta-prabha, "boundless illumination."
He goes on to explain this a little more:
Sinweiy wrote:Moreover, Shariputra, the lifespan of that Buddha and that of his people extends for measureless, limitless asamkhyeyas of kalpas. For this reason he is called Amitayus. And, Shariputra, since Amitabha became a Buddha, ten kalpas have passed. --Amitabha Sutra

here, two different names are use. Amitayus and Amitabha. Amitayus is without end, but a start, hence a Sambogakaya. Amitabha became Buddha ten kalpas ago and will have a "lifespan" of measureless, limitless asamkhyeyas of kalpas, hence an Nirmanakaya. Nirmanakaya has a start and an end to it.

all Buddhas have the three kayas. just different in naming. if one see it as Dharmakaya, then Amitabha is Anantaprabha. Amitabha is Dharmakaya. Dharmakaya is without start nor an end to it.
Sinweiy wrote:In the Mahayana Uttara Tantra Shastra (translated as 'The Changeless Nature'), it is explained that even though there is only one moon in the sky, it is reflected many times in pools and oceans, in clear or dirty water. Just like that example, Amitabha's activity permeates everywhere. The dharmakaya appears everywhere, dependent on the clarity of one's mind. If the water is agitated, the moon will still reflect in it, but unclearly. It is the same with one's mind: if the mind is agitated, the dharmakaya is not clearly revealed. That concludes the praise and homage to the dharmakaya.

Amitabha's speech is called Vajra Speech as it is unceasing. In terms of the quality of his speech, it is unequalled even by the sound of thunder, and also it is very beautiful, like melodious song or music. When the Buddha teaches, to those nearby his speech does not sound loud, but pleasant and clear, yet those listening far away can also hear it clearly. If one is listening to Amitabha's speech, it never sounds unpleasant, and it possesses 60 special qualities unmatched by melodious song. Rinpoché thinks that this is why the 2 examples, of his voice being unmatched by thunder and melodious song, are given in the sadhana. Out of compassion for all beings, Amitabha continually gives Dharma teachings. That is the praise and homage to the sambhogakaya.

There follows a praise to Amitabha's Vajra Mind, which is endowed with the 2 qualities of knowing the nature of things just as they are, and the many things that are to be known. It is a mind that cares for the welfare of all beings continually with great compassion and impartiality. Even though Brahma is a lord of a thousand million worlds, and Indra is powerful and has great merit, their minds cannot equal the mind of a buddha. One pays homage to Amitabha's mind, residing in a nirmanakaya form. In the text, it describes Amitabha as nirmanakaya, sambhogakaya or dharmakaya. These 3 are simply different aspects of forms. Each kaya has 3 different facets. For example, the dharmakaya of dharmakaya is Buddha Samantabhadra; the sambhogakaya of dharmakaya is Vajradhara; the nirmanakayas of dharmakaya are the 5 lords of the buddha-families. So, Amitabha, as head of the Lotus family, is classified here as nirmanakaya. The dharmakaya of sambhogakaya is Vajradhara; the sambhogakaya of sambhogakaya is Vairochana Gangchentso; the nirmanakaya of sambhogakaya is Sakyamuni Buddha. The dharmakaya of nirmanakaya is Amitabha; the sambhogakaya of nirmanakaya is Chenrezig; the nirmanakaya of nirmanakaya is Guru Rinpoche. So, here, Amitabha is the dharmakaya.

http://www.purifymind.com/Amitabha.html
Amida as Sambhogakaya
In the works of ShanTao we see him arguing that Amida should be thought of as a Sambhogakaya. This gets carried over into the doctrines of Jodo Shu via Honen, which can be found here. However, I am not sure that ShanTao came to the same conclusion of Shakyamuni as Nirmanakaya and I'm not really sure how well referenced that statement is. I suggest tabling the question of Sambhogakaya Amida's Nirmanakaya form, or taking one of the answers in the quotes above rather than arguing this issue that may be somewhat controversial.

In the Larger Sukhavati Sutra, Amida Buddha is the culmination of Vows made by Dharmakara Bodhisattva. He is associated with the Pure Land of Sukhavati. He can be perceived by those with the right karmic connections to him. Thus, these facts seem to conform to our (somewhat tentative) definition of Sambhogakaya above. For what it's worth, this is probably where I fall in this issue. The Dharmakaya is completely unfathomable and the Sambhogakaya is how we can come to know the Dharmakaya if the right karmic conditions are present. Bodhisattvas can interact with Sambhogakaya Buddhas for help along the path to Buddhahood. Everyone can see and interact with a Nirmanakaya Buddha that is born into the world, but they are very rare and have limited life spans. As stated above, Sambhogakayas are without an end, but a start, which is much more in line with the descriptions in the Pure Land Sutras imho.

Amida as Dharmakaya
In the Kyogyoshinsho, Shinran quotes TanLuan in asserting that Amida is the Dharmakaya manifesting as compassionate means (as opposed to manifesting as Thusness). Rennyo makes similar assertions in his OFumi, but also sometimes falls back to the ShanTao position of Amida as Sambhogakaya.

As mentioned in one of the quotes above, Amida appears in the doctrine of the Five Dhyani Buddhas, which is used by Vajrayana, appears in the Shurangama Mantra from the Shurangama Sutra, and appears in certain iconography like the crown of some Chinese statues of Ksitigarbha. These 5 Buddhas represent aspects of the Dharmakaya, and Amida represents the Buddha's compassion (or the wisdom of observation).

The visualization of Amida in the Meditation Sutra really seems to be describing the Dharmakaya - manifesting countless Buddhas in his light which shines (unimpeded) throughout the Ten Directions. Meanwhile, the visualization of Avalokitesvara has him emanating countless Shakyamunis. I've always thought light that is infinite, shining unimpeded throughout the ten directions sounds an awful lot like some of the descriptions of the Dharmakaya. The passages in the larger sutra about the Buddhas illuminating each other's lands, sounds to me like mirror-like wisdom. The recollection & praise of Amida's qualities (according to the Amitabha Sutra) affords one to be thought of & protected by all Buddhas - which would make one wonder what it is that all Buddhas have in common.

Personally, I would rather think of the Dharmakaya as unfathomable, without marks; as the Maha PrajnaParamita Sutra says "the mark of the Dharmakaya is no mark". Assigning a name, or an ego, or an identity to the Dharmakaya seems to be opening the door to confusion.

...

Would love to hear peoples' thoughts.
steveb1
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Re: Random thoughts regarding Amida and Trikaya

Post by steveb1 »

What a great post and great questions. I can't answer them, but I hope your post gets replies, since the three-bodies doctrine is endlessly fascinating to me, and I've received data about it on Dharma Wheel before. Hopefully more information will follow in the replies you receive.

:)
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: Random thoughts regarding Amida and Trikaya

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

I don't think that this perspective/understanding is only applicable to Pure Land schools.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Admin_PC
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Re: Random thoughts regarding Amida and Trikaya

Post by Admin_PC »

steveb1 wrote:What a great post and great questions. I can't answer them, but I hope your post gets replies, since the three-bodies doctrine is endlessly fascinating to me, and I've received data about it on Dharma Wheel before. Hopefully more information will follow in the replies you receive. :)
The original question in the thread I was trying to "do-over" involved the doctrinal justification behind viewing Amida as Dharmakaya. Well, as you can see above, this idea is far from universally agreed upon, but there are those who do assert such. I just hope I've accurately portrayed the various standpoints. I too really hope there are other replies, but inspiring people has never been my strong point, unless I've somehow pissed them off. :) Really appreciate your input.
smcj wrote:I don't think that this perspective/understanding is only applicable to Pure Land schools.
Absolutely correct. But as I mentioned above, given that the question I was trying to "re-do" was based on how Pure Land folks see Amida, I tried to stick to the original topic as much as I could. I would love a better explanation of the Dhyani Buddhas from someone in a tradition that has more info on that topic (for example). Trying to get a big picture of everything when many of us are coming from different traditions, based around different sutras, tantras, commentaries, doctrines, and masters (etc) can be extremely difficult. Unfortunately(?) many Indian sutras are not organized in such a straightforward manner, many actually come off as self-contained practice manuals - so piecing them together in a straightforward manner can be hard.
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: Random thoughts regarding Amida and Trikaya

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

In fact, some say that the Trikaya doctrine wasn't explicitly spelled out until the Yogacarans did it in the 3rd century CE.
So finding explicit sutra references in regards to this question can be a little tricky and must rely on interpretation.
The Trikaya doctrine is the esoteric interpretation of the classic Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha refuge formula: Enlightenment, the communication of enlightenment, and the physical manifestation of enlightenment. So it is not as if it suddenly appears out of nowhere!
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Admin_PC
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Re: Random thoughts regarding Amida and Trikaya

Post by Admin_PC »

smcj wrote:
In fact, some say that the Trikaya doctrine wasn't explicitly spelled out until the Yogacarans did it in the 3rd century CE.
So finding explicit sutra references in regards to this question can be a little tricky and must rely on interpretation.
The Trikaya doctrine is the esoteric interpretation of the classic Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha refuge formula: Enlightenment, the communication of enlightenment, and the physical manifestation of enlightenment. So it is not as if it suddenly appears out of nowhere!
Hadn't thought of it like that. My backlog of readings on basic Mahayana doctrine (Madhyamika & Yogacara) is way huge at this point. That's some deep info and a lot to chew on, thanks!
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Re: Random thoughts regarding Amida and Trikaya

Post by Admin_PC »

Saw this on the other thread and thought it might be worth posting here:
Trikaya sutra

Also:
Wisdom Library wrote:1. Dharmakaya: The Dharma body, or the "body of reality", which is formless, unchanging, transcendental, and inconceivable. Synonymous with suchness, or emptiness.
2. Sambhogakaya: the "body of enjoyment", the celestial body of the Buddha. Personification of eternal perfection in its ultimate sense. It "resides" in the Pure Land and never manifests itself in the mundane world, but only in the celestial spheres, accompanied by enlightened Bodhisattvas.
3. Nirmanakaya: the "incarnated body" of the Buddha. In order to benefit certain sentient beings, a Buddha incarnates himself into an appropriate visible body, such as that of Sakyamuni Buddha. The incarnated body of the Buddha should not be confused with a magically produced Buddha. The former is a real, tangible human body which has a definite life span, The latter is an illusory Buddha form which is produced with miraculous powers and can be withdrawn with miraculous powers (G.C.C. Chang).
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Re: Random thoughts regarding Amida and Trikaya

Post by Admin_PC »

Malcolm just blew me away with this one:
Malcolm wrote:A buddha, technically speaking, is the dharmakāya. The Ārya-aṣṭasāhasrikā-prajñāpāramitā Sūtra states:
Those who are attached to the tathāgata as a form or a name are childish and have corrupted discerning wisdom… the tathāgatas are not to be seen as the rūpakāya; the tathāgatās are to be seen as the dharmakāya.

The dharmakāya is ultimate, and therefore is unconditioned and permanent. It is only confusing when you mistakenly identify a buddha as the rūpakāya, a material body.
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: Random thoughts regarding Amida and Trikaya

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

An edited teaching on "Guru Yoga" from the previous Kalu R.:
Our approach to the guru should take into account the essential emptiness of the guru's mind as the Dharmakaya aspect, the absolute formless level of enlightened experience. The clarity and luminosity which arises as consciousness into the guru's mind is the Nirmanakaya aspect, the form expression of this energy. The Sambhogakaya is the inseparability of form and formless…….The term Svabhavikakaya is used to describe the Dharmakaya, Sambhogakaya and Nirmanakaya as different aspect of a single experience…..We view the guru as the embodiment of these Four Kayas...

In supplicating the guru, then, we are conscious of the guru as the embodiment of all the sources of refuge, the guru's form embodying the Sangha, the guru's speech embodying the Dharma, and the guru's mind embodying the Buddha, the enlightened mind. Also in tantric practice we consider the guru to embody the Three Roots. Obviously, the physical form of the guru is the guru, the source of blessing in the Vajrayana. The guru's speech is the manifestation of the dakinis and dharmapalas, the protective divinities. The guru's mind is connected with the meditational divinities.
Later he talks about what if your teacher isn't actually a Buddha. He says that even if he isn't, it is good to have faith that he is and that way you get the blessing of an actual Buddha.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Rakz
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Re: Random thoughts regarding Amida and Trikaya

Post by Rakz »

PorkChop wrote:Malcolm just blew me away with this one:
Malcolm wrote:A buddha, technically speaking, is the dharmakāya. The Ārya-aṣṭasāhasrikā-prajñāpāramitā Sūtra states:
Those who are attached to the tathāgata as a form or a name are childish and have corrupted discerning wisdom… the tathāgatas are not to be seen as the rūpakāya; the tathāgatās are to be seen as the dharmakāya.

The dharmakāya is ultimate, and therefore is unconditioned and permanent. It is only confusing when you mistakenly identify a buddha as the rūpakāya, a material body.
Regardless, both dharmakaya and rupakaya are inseperable. Can't have one without the other as accumulation of merit is a prerequisite to attaining buddhahood. I am sure Malcolm would agree.
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: Random thoughts regarding Amida and Trikaya

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Regardless, both dharmakaya and rupakaya are inseperable. Can't have one without the other as accumulation of merit is a prerequisite to attaining buddhahood. I am sure Malcolm would agree.
I don't think "inseperable" is the right word. Dharmakaya is permanent. Rupakaya is not. But I get your point.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Rakz
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Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:04 am

Re: Random thoughts regarding Amida and Trikaya

Post by Rakz »

smcj wrote:
Regardless, both dharmakaya and rupakaya are inseperable. Can't have one without the other as accumulation of merit is a prerequisite to attaining buddhahood. I am sure Malcolm would agree.
I don't think "inseperable" is the right word. Dharmakaya is permanent. Rupakaya is not. But I get your point.
Sambhogakaya is permanent actually. You must be referring to the nirmanakaya otherwise provide some sources please.
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: Random thoughts regarding Amida and Trikaya

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Tenso wrote:
smcj wrote: I don't think "inseperable" is the right word. Dharmakaya is permanent. Rupakaya is not. But I get your point.
Sambhogakaya is permanent actually. You must be referring to the nirmanakaya otherwise provide some sources please.
From RigpaWiki:
Rupakaya (Skt. rūpakāya; Tib. གཟུགས་སྐུ་, zukku; Wyl. gzugs sku) refers to the two 'form kayas' of a buddha: nirmanakaya and sambhogakaya. It is said that the rupakaya arises from the accumulation of merit and the dharmakaya from the accumulation of wisdom.

So Rupakaya refers to both Nirmanakaya and Sambhogakaya. Obviously the Nirmanakaya is impermanent. Once the Nirmanakaya ceases I assume you no longer speak of the Rupakaya, but only of the Sambhogakaya, inasmuch as you're specifically talking about form kayas.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Rakz
Posts: 1381
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:04 am

Re: Random thoughts regarding Amida and Trikaya

Post by Rakz »

I thought you meant both form bodies are impermanent. Nevermind :)
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Re: Random thoughts regarding Amida and Trikaya

Post by Admin_PC »

Sorry I should've explained a little more, where I was blown away. At first I thought maybe my whole line of thinking was off. As I thought about it, I've always seen the Sambhogakaya as kind of like an interface to the Dharmakaya, because the later is pretty much imperceptible to any but a Buddha. I think the main point is not to see the bag of bones that gets old, gets sick, and dies as the sum total of the Buddha, because a Buddha is so much more. Totally right that it's in that self-same bag of bones that one becomes awakened to the true nature, so in that sense, it's still important.
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