Nor exclusively a religious issue.PadmaVonSamba wrote:And the "other part", meaning trust and the betrayal of trust, is not an exclusively Buddhist issue.
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Article on Sexual Abuse & Harassment in Buddhist Communities
Re: Article on Sexual Abuse & Harassment in Buddhist Communi
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
- PadmaVonSamba
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- Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am
Re: Article on Sexual Abuse & Harassment in Buddhist Communi
Are you suggesting that auto repair isn't a religion?gregkavarnos wrote:Nor exclusively a religious issue.PadmaVonSamba wrote:And the "other part", meaning trust and the betrayal of trust, is not an exclusively Buddhist issue.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
Re: Article on Sexual Abuse & Harassment in Buddhist Communi
I was going to make a wisecrack about marriage.PadmaVonSamba wrote:Are you suggesting that auto repair isn't a religion?gregkavarnos wrote:Nor exclusively a religious issue.PadmaVonSamba wrote:And the "other part", meaning trust and the betrayal of trust, is not an exclusively Buddhist issue.
Re: Article on Sexual Abuse & Harassment in Buddhist Communi
Indeed... so what is exclusively a religious issue?gregkavarnos wrote:Nor exclusively a religious issue.PadmaVonSamba wrote:And the "other part", meaning trust and the betrayal of trust, is not an exclusively Buddhist issue.
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- PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Article on Sexual Abuse & Harassment in Buddhist Communi
Actually, more wise than crack.Jikan wrote: I was going to make a wisecrack about marriage.
Trust & betrayal of trust is something we find in all kinds of relationships,
especially very close ones, such as marriage.
I think what shel might argue is that
in marriage, one partner generally doesn't elevate the other to a 'superior' status,
but that this is often the case in a Buddhist teacher-student relationship,
thus the issue is particularly problematic in Buddhism.
However, this might also be said of any teacher-student relationship,
if you go off to study with an expert to study music or art, for example.
That kind of violation happens.
So, can we apply the buddhist method of
dissecting causes and results
and find what the cause is?
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Last edited by PadmaVonSamba on Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
Re: Article on Sexual Abuse & Harassment in Buddhist Communi
Well, I have to admit that both yours and Jikans wisecracks went straight over my head, but I am feeling a bit dim today!
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Article on Sexual Abuse & Harassment in Buddhist Communi
To say "often the case" may be putting it a bit mildly. Don't we really want to believe that they are somehow special?PadmaVonSamba wrote:I think what shel might argue is that
in marriage, one partner generally doesn't elevate the other to a 'superior' status,
but that this is often the case in a Buddhist teacher-student relationship,
thus the issue is particularly problematic in Buddhism.
- PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Article on Sexual Abuse & Harassment in Buddhist Communi
Well, it the course of Vajrayana practice, one regards one's teacher (lama) very highly indeed.shel wrote:To say "often the case" may be putting it a bit mildly. Don't we really want to believe that they are somehow special?PadmaVonSamba wrote:I think what shel might argue is that
in marriage, one partner generally doesn't elevate the other to a 'superior' status,
but that this is often the case in a Buddhist teacher-student relationship,
thus the issue is particularly problematic in Buddhism.
But there are good reasons and bad reasons for why anyone regards any teacher this way.
It depends on the criteria.
if you regard a lifetime (from childhood) of practice and study, the fulfillment of mastering various texts and practices, learning from great teachers themselves, passing tests, running monasteries, and being recognized by higher-ups, and who insist that every bit of it must be grounded in ethical conduct, then I do consider my own teachers as very special, and superior in that way. On the other hand, I met one of my teachers in the function of being his English language teacher, and in this he was my student, and he served me tea (a sign of respect to one's teacher) at the beginning of our lessons. Teacher-student isn't about fixed roles. And a good teacher always learns from his students.
But if one merely follows a teacher because he is famous or has a lot of other followers or a lot of money behind him, or has some magnetizing, charismatic personality, this is not a good reason.
What I posted before was that what allows violations to occur is the teacher not being honest with the student, the student not being honest with the teacher, and neither of them being honest with themselves.
If a teacher told you to do something and you thought it was wrong, or crazy,
but you did it anyway, you would be lying to yourself and also not being honest with your teacher.
If the student is not being honest with himself or herself, and in denial, makes excuses for what he or she knows is not right,
this opens the door for abuse. I'm not blaming the victim, I am just saying that is how the door gets open.
But it is also that the teacher thinks he can get away with something when he knows he really can't, and he chooses to be an abuser. It's a pretty sad situation all the way around. What the teacher should be giving students is the wisdom to trust their own instincts. And the problem is, as with any con artist, the victim doesn't know he's being victimized.
But, this is the time in history when this issue is coming to light, and I think that's a good sign.
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EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
Re: Article on Sexual Abuse & Harassment in Buddhist Communi
The door is opened by ALL the conditions of the situation, of course, not just the condition of the student. In truth, teachers or masters contribute significantly to opening the doors of potential abuse. How? By perpetuating the myth of the Zen "master," or any kind of "spiritual authority," or "transmission," etc etc. These are myths that have lived far beyond their stale date and have grown toxic.PadmaVonSamba wrote:If the student is not being honest with himself or herself, and in denial, makes excuses for what he or she knows is not right, this opens the door for abuse. I'm not blaming the victim, I am just saying that is how the door gets open.
Maybe they can't help themselves. There have been alcoholic Zen masters, for example. I don't think anyone chooses to be an addict.But it is also that the teacher thinks he can get away with something when he knows he really can't, and he chooses to be an abuser.
Re: Article on Sexual Abuse & Harassment in Buddhist Communi
If somebody has been engaged in serious spiritual practice all their life would that not put them in the position of being an authority on the subject? If through their practice their have control over aspects of, or ability in, practices contained in the path does that not entail mastery? If they can pass on their knowedge, wisdom and capacity is this not transmission? I fail to see why these designations are purely mythical. I have had the karma to come into contact with teachers that possess these (apparently) mythical properties.shel wrote:By perpetuating the myth of the Zen "master," or any kind of "spiritual authority," or "transmission," etc etc. These are myths that have lived far beyond their stale date and have grown toxic.
None of them have tried to rip me off, take advantage of me, pull the wool over my eyes, etc... They have been honest, forthright, humble and generous.
I have also come across teachers that do not have these "mythical" properties and I left them at the first sign that something was not quite right.
You see, for abuse to occur, you need an abuser AND an abused party.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
- PadmaVonSamba
- Posts: 9493
- Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am
Re: Article on Sexual Abuse & Harassment in Buddhist Communi
I myself was quite addicted to Alcohol for many years, unable to get myself to quit. AA didn't help. There was always an excuse, and I could never shake the craving. So, I took the 5 precept vows from my teacher, and after that, never felt the craving again. I have had a little, to be honest, in toasting a friend, but I found that I no longer cared for it, and haven't had any since.shel wrote: There have been alcoholic Zen masters, for example. I don't think anyone chooses to be an addict.
"Glory be and Halley-loo-ya!" ...you are probably thinking.
And who can say that I really didn't do it all by myself?
Only one person can say that (and it isn't my teacher).
So, you see, I am quite partial to the teacher-student thing.
Those Zen masters should have gone and met my lama.
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EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
- PadmaVonSamba
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- Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am
Re: Article on Sexual Abuse & Harassment in Buddhist Communi
For the sake of moving this conversation forward a little, I am going to make a wild guess here,
that what shel is addressing is the issue of devotion,
specifically what is the nature of student devotion to a teacher, what does it actually mean,
and what sort of dangers exist within that context.
Since the actual topic of this thread is a request for comments on an article on
Sexual Abuse & Harassment in Buddhist Communities,
I suggest that a new thread be opened, by anyone who really wants to discuss
"Devotion To a Teacher - Potential Benefits and Dangers"
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that what shel is addressing is the issue of devotion,
specifically what is the nature of student devotion to a teacher, what does it actually mean,
and what sort of dangers exist within that context.
Since the actual topic of this thread is a request for comments on an article on
Sexual Abuse & Harassment in Buddhist Communities,
I suggest that a new thread be opened, by anyone who really wants to discuss
"Devotion To a Teacher - Potential Benefits and Dangers"
.
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EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
- PadmaVonSamba
- Posts: 9493
- Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am
Re: Article on Sexual Abuse & Harassment in Buddhist Communi
This is an interesting opinion.shel wrote: ...the myth of the Zen "master," or any kind of "spiritual authority," or "transmission," etc etc. These are myths that have lived far beyond their stale date and have grown toxic.
But it ignores the fact (?) that by and large,
devoted student-teacher relationships do not end up in abusive situations.
We agree that such a deep level of trust certainly creates an good environment for betrayal and violation.
But from this you draw the conclusion that
"master,","spiritual authority," or "transmission," and so on
are meaningless definitions. Myths.
So, I am now curious as to how you picture or define these things,
and whether it is in fact how most Buddhists who are devoted to their teachers
regard these terms and their meanings.
One would assume that you do not have that kind of connection to a teacher
(although in the past you might have had)
and so, I want to ask whether your opinions are based on first-hand experience
or just something that you imagine happens with other people.
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EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
Re: Article on Sexual Abuse & Harassment in Buddhist Communi
I believe that it is related, since shel seems to be proposing that devotion is required for abuse to take place. Without the (mindless) devotion promoted by religious authorities, or with presence of discrimination on the side of the pupil, abuse and harassment would not exist.
Unfortunately I feel they are throwing out the baby with the bathwater because one can have devtion based on discrimination and thus not fall a prey to (serious) abuse or at least be able to spot it and avoid it when it occurs, regardless of the religious (or other) structures one is engaging.
Unfortunately I feel they are throwing out the baby with the bathwater because one can have devtion based on discrimination and thus not fall a prey to (serious) abuse or at least be able to spot it and avoid it when it occurs, regardless of the religious (or other) structures one is engaging.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
- PadmaVonSamba
- Posts: 9493
- Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am
Re: Article on Sexual Abuse & Harassment in Buddhist Communi
Perhaps what shel suggests is that devotion is inherently mindless,gregkavarnos wrote:I believe that it is related, since shel seems to be proposing that devotion is required for abuse to take place. Without the (mindless) devotion promoted by religious authorities, or with presence of discrimination on the side of the pupil, abuse and harassment would not exist.
Unfortunately I feel they are throwing out the baby with the bathwater because one can have devtion based on discrimination and thus not fall a prey to (serious) abuse or at least be able to spot it and avoid it when it occurs, regardless of the religious (or other) structures one is engaging.
or that it strips away critical thinking automatically.
I prefer to think of devotion to a teacher
the way opponents regard each other in a chess game.
I don't mean that one is trying to compete,
but that one has the highest respect for,
and only wants that interaction
from which is challenged, and becomes better.
One's wits are not dulled. One doesn't become a robot,
but thinking becomes sharper. And then. beyond that.
Chess opponents are often the best of friends.
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EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
Re: Article on Sexual Abuse & Harassment in Buddhist Communi
Please continue this interesting discussion on devotion at the link below:
http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.ph ... 32#p158759
Let's stay on topic here vis a vis abuse and harassment. Thanks
http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.ph ... 32#p158759
Let's stay on topic here vis a vis abuse and harassment. Thanks
- PadmaVonSamba
- Posts: 9493
- Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am
Re: Article on Sexual Abuse & Harassment in Buddhist Communi
General Devotion Thread...didn't he lead an army once?Jikan wrote:Please continue this interesting discussion on devotion at the link below:
http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.ph ... 32#p158759
Let's stay on topic here vis a vis abuse and harassment. Thanks
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
Re: Article on Sexual Abuse & Harassment in Buddhist Communi
An army of lovers!
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
- PadmaVonSamba
- Posts: 9493
- Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am
Re: Article on Sexual Abuse & Harassment in Buddhist Communi
Jikan wrote: Let's stay on topic here vis a vis abuse and harassment. Thanks
I think what shel is saying is that there is a difference between
a sort of causal student-teacher relationship,
perhaps where one attends public teachings, asks questions,
and comes away from it a little wiser,
and something more personal, which I think defines the word 'devotion'
and that this level of personal interaction
is both archaic, and actually encourages abuse (sexual harassment)
and what I want to know is,
since most of the time, sexual abuse is not the outcome,
(or at least no evidence supports this)
and in fact is very rare, and abuse is much more common in other relational situations,
is the aspect of student devotion in Buddhism really the source of the problem
or is that just a distraction from finding the real sources?
Ultimately, of course, we can just chalk it all up to samsara
but that doesn't solve anything.
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EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
Re: Article on Sexual Abuse & Harassment in Buddhist Communi
Padma, "Perhaps what shel suggests is that devotion is inherently mindless,
or that it strips away critical thinking automatically.
I prefer to think of devotion to a teacher
the way opponents regard each other in a chess game"
What if you meet a teacher that's effulgent? Few of us have been that lucky.
We can all get trapped with the intellectual chatter going on in our head; a chess game is based on strategy.....so are you trying to outsmart the teacher? If you're more articulate and studied more sutras maybe you can, but thats got nothing to do with awakening.
or that it strips away critical thinking automatically.
I prefer to think of devotion to a teacher
the way opponents regard each other in a chess game"
What if you meet a teacher that's effulgent? Few of us have been that lucky.
We can all get trapped with the intellectual chatter going on in our head; a chess game is based on strategy.....so are you trying to outsmart the teacher? If you're more articulate and studied more sutras maybe you can, but thats got nothing to do with awakening.