Moreover when we hear about a cause end effect it breaks the experience of unity. "Here is an effect, created by that cause", separates not only cause from effect, but also phenomena from the observer. We end up with a world of seemingly independent events, that we are not part of. We focus only on those event that we are causing, or are effecting us, which only straightens the idea of Self.
oushi wrote:I see a problem with theory of cause and effect, that is, separations it creates. It builds a fake concepts which have no basis for existence outside the environment in which they arise. I don't see a good reason to build further theories upon false ground.
oushi wrote:Now, there is a different way of looking at it, which does not have those negative consequences, and it is allowance. Phenomena arise not through
a "effort" of causes, but through allowance of everything. For something to arise, everything needs to enable it to arise.
oushi wrote:To implement, you would have to force change, which is an attempt to break karma flow. That clouds Liberation. To implement, is to control.
How can you liberate all things by binding them? If you try to enforce your will upon something, you take away its freedom, closing the doors to
oushi wrote:If you subscribe to causality, you may see yourself as a cause for change, so you struggle with reality trying to shape it.
Nothing wrote:oushi wrote:I see a problem with theory of cause and effect, that is, separations it creates. It builds a fake concepts which have no basis for existence outside the environment in which they arise. I don't see a good reason to build further theories upon false ground.
Surely we must agree that an effect cannot happen without a cause, so to say there is a separation is to confirm that these are not linked, maybe we cannot see the cause itself but should we introduce the word separation to divide it up? Fake concepts they may be due to their existence as it is impermanent and we can also say that life itself is also a fake concept too, can't we?
Matt J wrote:Nagarjuna and his interpreters have, in my mind, done a great job both of critiquing causality but without adopting a "no cause" stance, either. The problem in my mind, as you say, is seeing causation as a relationship between independent parts. Having said that, causes and conditions are not rejected. You still need earth, water, sunlight, and a seed to grow a flower. While form is emptiness, emptiness is also form.
Nothing wrote:Interesting when you use the word "allowance", what if we use "right conditions",
Nothing wrote:Not knowing how much karma we all have, surely, you are not suggesting that letting all the karma flow out will lead to liberation.....
Nothing wrote:some people have have masses of karma and some have few, so for these karma to flow away, it could take many lifetimes/few for some.....
Nothing wrote:surely there is a more important question and that is how do we know that we are not creating new karma because one is "creating a new cause"
Nothing wrote:Letting go is one thing but doing it is another!
oushi wrote:Question: what/who is "breaking" out of the cycle?
Since only allowed phenomena arise, there is nothing to let go of.
Everything that arises is already liberated, otherwise it would't be able to arise. That which is liberated cannot be let go of, because it is already free. No effort is needed. Allowing does not require effort. This is the source of confusion, this is why it looks difficult to actually do it. It's like looking for a way to enter space. You will never find the way to enter it, because you are already in it.
If you see phenomena as not arising from causal roots, they will appear as unobstructed and ungraspable.
Surely you are not suggesting that a human being arises is already liberated?
Nothing wrote:Are we not conditioned?.....and if we are liberated already, then what exactly is Buddhism for?
We are certainly not free!!??
.....Exchanging causality for allowance, you exchange karma for liberation. Letting go is allowance, thus there is no causal patter called liberation. You don't have to let all karma flow out, you just need to allow karma to flow. Liberation is allowance, not karma.
You cannot create karma through letting go.
oushi wrote:Everything arise liberated. The problem lies in ignorance of it.
Nothing wrote:Are we not conditioned?.....and if we are liberated already, then what exactly is Buddhism for?"We" is deluded self/mind, or "no one" here?
What is liberation? By definition, it must not be bound or limited by any state, thus liberation cannot be any particular state. It also cannot be forbidden to be any state. It cannot be obstructed by anything. There is nothing that can stop "Liberated" to arise, because it wouldn't be free.
Since phenomena must be unobstructed to arise, all arising phenomena must be free, otherwise they would not arise.
If I ask you, what caused a phenomena, you will show me a cause.
What will you show me when I ask you, what allowed that phenomena?
Nothing wrote:are you also suggesting that there is no liberation?
Nothing wrote:Yet letting go surely cannot liberate? Unless one has already been liberated.
Nothing wrote:Interesting statement but it takes two to tango!! If everything arise is liberated, then how would you describe those in other planes of existence? especially the animals realm?
Nothing wrote:and why exactly is it that beings are born INTO these realms? Are we correct to say that animals cannot escape samsara?.....why?
Nothing wrote:For anything to exist, it must be conditioned.....hence not permanent......both applies.
Nothing wrote:Am not sure if you are suggesting that liberation itself is an automatic process, ie. free to arrive at or destined to be arrived at etc? Surely, what is certain is what arises cannot be free, it is conditioned.....hence existence/arise.
If it is destined to arrive, how does that work? can one truly arrive in one lifetime? maybe but what if not, What happens after death, does one gets reborn as a human again, which is very rare!
Nothing wrote:but cannot happen as liberation itself needs the necessary right conditions for it to manifest.
Nothing wrote:If one were to seek a destination, one would find a way to get to that destination. One needs to know how to get there before one can get there.....so there is a cause, with the right conditions, the effects will follow!
Nothing wrote:When there is a cause, with the right conditions, there will be an effect.....so the answer will be the right conditions.
Nothing wrote:We haven't understood the depth of cause and effect yet, have we?
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