Causality transformed

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Causality transformed

Postby oushi » Thu Oct 03, 2013 10:12 am

I see a problem with theory of cause and effect, that is, separations it creates. It builds a fake concepts which have no basis for existence outside the environment in which they arise. I don't see a good reason to build further theories upon false ground. People may try to justify the use of causality, but when we take into consideration the interdependence of phenomena, it becomes a limited device for explaining reality. Playground for fixating mind to create and grasp after concepts.

Moreover when we hear about a cause end effect it breaks the experience of unity. "Here is an effect, created by that cause", separates not only cause from effect, but also phenomena from the observer. We end up with a world of seemingly independent events, that we are not part of. We focus only on those event that we are causing, or are effecting us, which only straightens the idea of Self.

Now, there is a different way of looking at it, which does not have those negative consequences, and it is allowance. Phenomena arise not through a "effort" of causes, but through allowance of everything. For something to arise, everything needs to enable it to arise. Thus we don't approach a fragmented reality, but we are united through this allowance for phenomena. Moreover they are not different then the rest, they are not even a part of it all, they are all. And at the end, unity allows itself to be as it is, without dividing itself into caused and effects, me, or you.
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby futerko » Thu Oct 03, 2013 10:31 am

Absolutely. Causality is a way of explaining the path away from realisation.

edit... that is of course, unless you take the "gradual" path.
we cannot get rid of God because we still believe in grammar - Nietzsche
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby lobster » Thu Oct 03, 2013 2:06 pm

I would agree with your assessment of Dependent Origination. Allowing or integrating the process of causes natural being and cessation, like a breath of always fresh air . . .
We can also implement rather than just integrate, thereby speeding the process. Is this part of your transformation? :smile:
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby oushi » Thu Oct 03, 2013 3:04 pm

Since thing arise through allowance, allowing is the best you can do.

To implement, you would have to force change, which is an attempt to break karma flow. That clouds Liberation. To implement, is to control. How can you liberate all things by binding them? If you try to enforce your will upon something, you take away its freedom, closing the doors to liberation.
We are talking about attitude here, so it does not stop implementation in the practical sense. It just does not push it. You allow your mind to implement whatever there is allowance for. This loosens identification with the content of the mind. by unifying it with all allowed.
Since phenomena arise only through absolute allowance, what can you do to make them arise beside allowing? If reality disallows for something, why fight with it by trying to enforce your desire? This is precisely the difference between causality and allowance. If you subscribe to causality, you may see yourself as a cause for change, so you struggle with reality trying to shape it.
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby steveb1 » Fri Oct 04, 2013 5:11 am

Can someone educate me on Dependent Origination...? I'm still somewhat burdened with the Thomistic "First Cause Uncaused" notion.

I can understand the idea of all things arising through prior causes/chains of causation. But how can the chains extend "backward" in an infinite regression? Would not that tend to contradict the assumptions of causal theory, seeing that effects come from prior causes / and causes come from prior effects and prior causes?

What set the causes in motion? How can the universe's effects be infinite or eternal, since effects demand ... well ... causes ... and the idea of causation itself demands causes. But Dependent Origination ultimately turns away from causes/causation by claiming that cause - and effect - results from "No Cause", i.e., no First Cause or Initiating Cause.

Can someone kindly explain this to me, or point me to a book or url that explains Dependent Origination?
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby Seishin » Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:44 am

From what I understand, causality is not linear, but spiders out in all different directions, which makes finding the "start" impossible. Things are also circular, so in looking for the "beginning" you may find yourself back at the "end".

Think of the water cycle, in which there is no real beginning and no real end, but a circular process where one part of the process is reliant on the previous parts.

Gassho,
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby Seishin » Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:46 am

Also, here is a good explanation of Dependant Origination http://www.buddhanet.net/cmdsg/coarise.htm

Gassho
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby Matt J » Fri Oct 04, 2013 3:39 pm

Nagarjuna and his interpreters have, in my mind, done a great job both of critiquing causality but without adopting a "no cause" stance, either. The problem in my mind, as you say, is seeing causation as a relationship between independent parts. Having said that, causes and conditions are not rejected. You still need earth, water, sunlight, and a seed to grow a flower. While form is emptiness, emptiness is also form.
The Great Way is not difficult
If only there is no picking or choosing
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby LastLegend » Fri Oct 04, 2013 4:58 pm

oushi wrote:
Moreover when we hear about a cause end effect it breaks the experience of unity. "Here is an effect, created by that cause", separates not only cause from effect, but also phenomena from the observer. We end up with a world of seemingly independent events, that we are not part of. We focus only on those event that we are causing, or are effecting us, which only straightens the idea of Self.


I agree with this view. However, I feel cause and effect is the function of the mind...such as if you grow apple, you will have apples.
NAMO AMITABHA
NAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)
NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby Nothing » Fri Oct 04, 2013 8:47 pm

oushi wrote:I see a problem with theory of cause and effect, that is, separations it creates. It builds a fake concepts which have no basis for existence outside the environment in which they arise. I don't see a good reason to build further theories upon false ground.

Surely we must agree that an effect cannot happen without a cause, so to say there is a separation is to confirm that these are not linked, maybe we cannot see the cause itself but should we introduce the word separation to divide it up? Fake concepts they may be due to their existence as it is impermanent and we can also say that life itself is also a fake concept too, can't we?

oushi wrote:Now, there is a different way of looking at it, which does not have those negative consequences, and it is allowance. Phenomena arise not through
a "effort" of causes, but through allowance of everything. For something to arise, everything needs to enable it to arise.

Interesting when you use the word "allowance", what if we use "right conditions", an effect cannot happen without the right conditions but requires an initial cause.

oushi wrote:To implement, you would have to force change, which is an attempt to break karma flow. That clouds Liberation. To implement, is to control.
How can you liberate all things by binding them? If you try to enforce your will upon something, you take away its freedom, closing the doors to
liberation.

Not knowing how much karma we all have, surely, you are not suggesting that letting all the karma flow out will lead to liberation.....some people have have masses of karma and some have few, so for these karma to flow away, it could take many lifetimes/few for some.....yet, surely there is a more important question and that is how do we know that we are not creating new karma because one is "creating a new cause"

oushi wrote:If you subscribe to causality, you may see yourself as a cause for change, so you struggle with reality trying to shape it.

Cause of change is just an effect, it is impermanent, as most see it as reality, maybe we should be saying that it is an illusion because what we see isn't real, is it?
Maybe this will help:

In the film Matrix Reloaded where Neo was speaking to the Oracle in the courtyard:
O: how do you feel?
N: I eh!
O: I know you are not sleeping, we’ll get to that. Why don’t you come and have a seat.
N: maybe I’ll stand
O: well suit yourself.
N: I felt like sitting.
O: I know. So, let’s get the obvious stuff out of the way
N: you are not human are you?
O: well its tough to get any more obvious than that.
N: If I had to guess, I’d say you are a programme from the machine world, so is he.
O: so far so good.
N: but if that is true, that could mean you are part of the system, another kind of control.
O: keep going.
N: I suppose the most obvious question is, how can I trust you?
O: Bingo. It is a pickle, no doubt about it, bad news is there’s no way of you could really know whether I could help you or not, so it’s really up to you, just have to make up your own dam mind to either accept what I am going to tell you or reject it. Candy?
N: You already know if I am going to take it?
O: Wouldn’t be much of an oracle if I didn’t.
N: But if you already know, how can I make a choice?
O: Because you didn’t come here to make the choice, you’ve already made it. You’re here to try to understand why you made it. I thought you would have figured that out already.
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby KonchokZoepa » Fri Oct 04, 2013 9:00 pm

Nothing wrote:
oushi wrote:I see a problem with theory of cause and effect, that is, separations it creates. It builds a fake concepts which have no basis for existence outside the environment in which they arise. I don't see a good reason to build further theories upon false ground.


Surely we must agree that an effect cannot happen without a cause, so to say there is a separation is to confirm that these are not linked, maybe we cannot see the cause itself but should we introduce the word separation to divide it up? Fake concepts they may be due to their existence as it is impermanent and we can also say that life itself is also a fake concept too, can't we?





i dont see cause and effect creating separation or dualism other than in the mind. even though we see in dualistic manner, the ground of all is in unity with all. and dividing that there are separation between cause and effect would be saying that there is a separation between a seed and a plant. and this metaphor is just two concepts that are different, but the way they are linked that one can not be without the other and if we see it how it actually is, the seed doesnt just suddenly become a plant, but there is a process of transformation and we just apply concepts to make sense out of reality.
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

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Re: Causality transformed

Postby steveb1 » Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:04 pm

Seishin wrote:Also, here is a good explanation of Dependant Origination http://www.buddhanet.net/cmdsg/coarise.htm

Gassho


Seishin, thanks for your comments and for the link - I'll study it :)
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby steveb1 » Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:05 pm

Matt J wrote:Nagarjuna and his interpreters have, in my mind, done a great job both of critiquing causality but without adopting a "no cause" stance, either. The problem in my mind, as you say, is seeing causation as a relationship between independent parts. Having said that, causes and conditions are not rejected. You still need earth, water, sunlight, and a seed to grow a flower. While form is emptiness, emptiness is also form.


Matt, thanks for that bit about Nagarjuna's both critiquing causality - but not claiming a "no cause" position. I hadn't known that.
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby oushi » Sat Oct 05, 2013 7:06 am

Causality is a knowledge of patterns. A device to move around the place. Watch this cool video and see how many patterns you can find.

They are not causing anything, not influencing anything beside your mind. :smile:
Nothing wrote:Interesting when you use the word "allowance", what if we use "right conditions",

The difference it perspective, which changes everything here. When you speak about conditions, you can have right or wrong ones. Differentiation arises, heaven and hell arise. But allowance is not two. It does not come and go, it does not differentiate... patters do.
Nothing wrote:Not knowing how much karma we all have, surely, you are not suggesting that letting all the karma flow out will lead to liberation.....

It's a good question, but you didn't give it a second thought. Exchanging causality for allowance, you exchange karma for liberation. Letting go is allowance, thus there is no causal patter called liberation. You don't have to let all karma flow out, you just need to allow karma to flow. Liberation is allowance, not karma.
Unfortunately it is not so straight forward, because your karma will keep on preventing allowance. Mind habitually grasps after patters, returning to the "self" perspective. Nevertheless, seeing all phenomena as children of allowance, liberates them in that very moment. World exists through allowance, not infinitely regressive chain of causes. This is liberating numberless beings without liberating a single being.
Nothing wrote:some people have have masses of karma and some have few, so for these karma to flow away, it could take many lifetimes/few for some.....

If you want to purify you karma, then it can surely take some time.
Nothing wrote:surely there is a more important question and that is how do we know that we are not creating new karma because one is "creating a new cause"

You cannot create karma through letting go.
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby Nothing » Sat Oct 05, 2013 2:08 pm

oushi wrote:.....

On the subject of the video itself, it is simply an effect. This effect depends on a cause. In terms of the patterns itself, this is just an illusion which is created by the different lengths of the strings itself when it swings hence different patterns are created. If we were to simplify it to a single ball on a string, there would be only one pattern/swing. Yet this swing cannot happen without the initial cause by pushing it. We're merely reactly to what we're seeing.....but the point is the cause itself!

Suppose the point am trying to make is as follows: (analogy) and see if this lands?
Suppose one is driving a car, foot on the accelerator pedal, at the same time, looking outside the side window, a motion of images passing by.
The cause is the foot on the pedal.....the effects are the motion of images.
We may let the motion of images pass by, continue as they may and we let it pass. We can say this is karma flowing out/past.

Now the point is if we let this flow out (motion images/karma), is it not correct to say it would be endless and never ending because for those motion images/karma to exist, there has to be a cause, which is the foot on the pedal in this example. So just by letting it flow, does it really mean liberation?
All we see is only a cycle but if we do not "break" out of this cycle by stopping the "cause" itself, how can liberation be achieved just by letting the motion images/karma go by?

Is liberation not to "break" out of this cycle itself?

Letting go is one thing but doing it is another!.....yet it misses the point does it not?
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby oushi » Sat Oct 05, 2013 2:41 pm

Question: what/who is "breaking" out of the cycle? :roll:
Nothing wrote:Letting go is one thing but doing it is another!

Since only allowed phenomena arise, there is nothing to let go of.
Everything that arises is already liberated, otherwise it would't be able to arise. That which is liberated cannot be let go of, because it is already free. No effort is needed. Allowing does not require effort. This is the source of confusion, this is why it looks difficult to actually do it. It's like looking for a way to enter space. You will never find the way to enter it, because you are already in it.
If you see phenomena as not arising from causal roots, they will appear as unobstructed and ungraspable.
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby Nothing » Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:19 pm

oushi wrote:Question: what/who is "breaking" out of the cycle?

For those who do not know, it would be the deluded self/mind. For those who knows, it would be no one!
Since only allowed phenomena arise, there is nothing to let go of.
Everything that arises is already liberated, otherwise it would't be able to arise. That which is liberated cannot be let go of, because it is already free. No effort is needed. Allowing does not require effort. This is the source of confusion, this is why it looks difficult to actually do it. It's like looking for a way to enter space. You will never find the way to enter it, because you are already in it.
If you see phenomena as not arising from causal roots, they will appear as unobstructed and ungraspable.

Really not sure here??.....Surely you are not suggesting that a human being arises is already liberated?
We are certainly not free!!??

Are we not conditioned?.....and if we are liberated already, then what exactly is Buddhism for?
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby oushi » Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:03 pm

Surely you are not suggesting that a human being arises is already liberated?

Everything arise liberated. The problem lies in ignorance of it.
Nothing wrote:Are we not conditioned?.....and if we are liberated already, then what exactly is Buddhism for?

"We" is deluded self/mind, or "no one" here?
We are certainly not free!!??

What is liberation? By definition, it must not be bound or limited by any state, thus liberation cannot be any particular state. It also cannot be forbidden to be any state. It cannot be obstructed by anything. There is nothing that can stop "Liberated" to arise, because it wouldn't be free.
Since phenomena must be unobstructed to arise, all arising phenomena must be free, otherwise they would not arise.

It may be hard to imagine from the causality point of view. But if you look at it as allowance, you will see everything arising through it.

If I ask you, what caused a phenomena, you will show me a cause.
What will you show me when I ask you, what allowed that phenomena?
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby Nothing » Sun Oct 06, 2013 12:02 am

Going back a few posts:
.....Exchanging causality for allowance, you exchange karma for liberation. Letting go is allowance, thus there is no causal patter called liberation. You don't have to let all karma flow out, you just need to allow karma to flow. Liberation is allowance, not karma.

Not sure here about exchange karma for liberation.....Surely, liberation itself is liberation, end of story, there is no further letting go to exchange for liberation?.....are you also suggesting that there is no liberation?

You cannot create karma through letting go.

Yet letting go surely cannot liberate? Unless one has already been liberated. Do we see a difference?

oushi wrote:Everything arise liberated. The problem lies in ignorance of it.

Interesting statement but it takes two to tango!! If everything arise is liberated, then how would you describe those in other planes of existence? especially the animals realm? and why exactly is it that beings are born INTO these realms? Are we correct to say that animals cannot escape samsara?.....why?

Nothing wrote:Are we not conditioned?.....and if we are liberated already, then what exactly is Buddhism for?
"We" is deluded self/mind, or "no one" here?

For anything to exist, it must be conditioned.....hence not permanent......both applies.

What is liberation? By definition, it must not be bound or limited by any state, thus liberation cannot be any particular state. It also cannot be forbidden to be any state. It cannot be obstructed by anything. There is nothing that can stop "Liberated" to arise, because it wouldn't be free.
Since phenomena must be unobstructed to arise, all arising phenomena must be free, otherwise they would not arise.

Am not sure if you are suggesting that liberation itself is an automatic process, ie. free to arrive at or destined to be arrived at etc? Surely, what is certain is what arises cannot be free, it is conditioned.....hence existence/arise. If it is destined to arrive, how does that work? can one truly arrive in one lifetime? maybe but what if not, What happens after death, does one gets reborn as a human again, which is very rare! Chance/luck maybe? but cannot happen as liberation itself needs the necessary right conditions for it to manifest.
If one were to seek a destination, one would find a way to get to that destination. One needs to know how to get there before one can get there.....so there is a cause, with the right conditions, the effects will follow!

If I ask you, what caused a phenomena, you will show me a cause.
What will you show me when I ask you, what allowed that phenomena?

For anything to exist, it must depend on something else. When there is a cause, with the right conditions, there will be an effect.....so the answer will be the right conditions. It cannot happen if the conditions are not right, we can also say, it is waiting to happen or it already happened but requires the right conditions to manifest.

We haven't understood the depth of cause and effect yet, have we?
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby oushi » Sun Oct 06, 2013 8:40 am

Nothing wrote:are you also suggesting that there is no liberation?

Liberation cannot be bound by form, so there cannot be a thing called liberation.
Nothing wrote:Yet letting go surely cannot liberate? Unless one has already been liberated.

Good remark.
Nothing wrote:Interesting statement but it takes two to tango!! If everything arise is liberated, then how would you describe those in other planes of existence? especially the animals realm?

Especially wild nature looks liberated, but I am unable to enter animal mind to say more.
Nothing wrote:and why exactly is it that beings are born INTO these realms? Are we correct to say that animals cannot escape samsara?.....why?

You are bringing causality here. Nobody can escape samsara, because liberation is already liberated. Those are not two distinct world, so you cannot leave one and enter the other.
Nothing wrote:For anything to exist, it must be conditioned.....hence not permanent......both applies.

I say, for anything to exist, it must be allowed... hence all applies.
Nothing wrote:Am not sure if you are suggesting that liberation itself is an automatic process, ie. free to arrive at or destined to be arrived at etc? Surely, what is certain is what arises cannot be free, it is conditioned.....hence existence/arise.

I think you missed my point. I don't talk about conditioning, but allowance. Surely, what is certain is what arises cannot be bound, it must be free.
If it is destined to arrive, how does that work? can one truly arrive in one lifetime? maybe but what if not, What happens after death, does one gets reborn as a human again, which is very rare!

First of all, if you want to talk about destiny, lets make something clear. In causal reality there is no place for free agent. If reality is ruled by cause and effect, then something like free will has no place in it. This is an obvious consequence of causality. "One that arrives" is nothing! but a concept. That which happens after death is pure result of causes and effects, that's given. Guessing how will causality behave in future is futile, as it doesn't change anything anyway. As you see, your questions have no ground in causal reality.
Nothing wrote:but cannot happen as liberation itself needs the necessary right conditions for it to manifest.

Quite contrary, everything that manifests does that through liberation.
Nothing wrote:If one were to seek a destination, one would find a way to get to that destination. One needs to know how to get there before one can get there.....so there is a cause, with the right conditions, the effects will follow!

If one tries to attain the Way, one cannot walk the Way. Ten thousand wild fancies arise, chasing each other in the head. When the sword of wisdom flashes, there is nothing at all. Even before the light shines, darkness is already bright.
Nothing wrote:When there is a cause, with the right conditions, there will be an effect.....so the answer will be the right conditions.

You didn't answer the question, but anyway, you said that things arise through right conditions, so there are only rights conditions. Everything you see, hear, feel, think... are right conditions. What more do you need? Something better then right conditions?
Nothing wrote:We haven't understood the depth of cause and effect yet, have we?

Causality is simple, but also ruthless. Its consequences are so severe, that nobody dears to speak about them openly. Penetrated thoroughly reveals fatalism, used partially brings delusion.
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