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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 1:47 pm 
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oushi wrote:

Moreover when we hear about a cause end effect it breaks the experience of unity. "Here is an effect, created by that cause", separates not only cause from effect, but also phenomena from the observer. We end up with a world of seemingly independent events


Not necessarily! One could easily say that because of "cause and effect" they are not independent but actually just the opposite!

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 2:16 pm 
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The train is getting longer yet the station is afar!.....anyway, back to the interesting liberation bit once more.
Allowance/right conditions, doesn't really matter here, they are mere words. The bigger issue here appears to be we're pointing at it differently.

oushi wrote:
What is liberation? By definition, it must not be bound or limited by any state, thus liberation cannot be any particular state. It also cannot be forbidden to be any state. It cannot be obstructed by anything. There is nothing that can stop "Liberated" to arise, because it wouldn't be free.

Yes, but that is not what liberation is, is it? Are you not describing a state of perfection and yet included the word liberation? Is there not a difference between description of what that state is against the actual process of liberation? They are clearly two very different things. Are you suggesting that this cannot be experienced or known?

So if you say:
Quote:
Liberation cannot be bound by form, so there cannot be a thing called liberation.

So you are suggesting that the Buddha did not achieve liberation too?
You also mentioned:
Quote:
Nobody can escape samsara.

Is this not what the Buddha taught?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 5:02 pm 
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oushi wrote:
Causality is simple, but also ruthless. Its consequences are so severe, that nobody dears to speak about them openly. Penetrated thoroughly reveals fatalism, used partially brings delusion.


I understand your intention on allowance or effortlessness. I don't see how causality reveals fatalism, however. Causality is functioning of mind but mind is not bound by causality because if it is bound by causality, we will be bound to suffering forever.

If everything exists within the mind, we will experience what we exerts.

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NAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)
NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)

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―Listen! Those of you who devote yourselves to the Dharma
must not be afraid of losing your bodies and your lives―


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 5:48 pm 
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Nothing wrote:
Yes, but that is not what liberation is, is it? Are you not describing a state of perfection and yet included the word liberation? Is there not a difference between description of what that state is against the actual process of liberation? They are clearly two very different things. Are you suggesting that this cannot be experienced or known?

If looking at rope you take is for a snake, this is delusion. The object does not change. In the same way, you look at liberated things, and you see them as bound. You may call the moment in which you see that everything is liberated, as liberation. This is probably what you call the goal of the path.
Nothing wrote:
So you are suggesting that the Buddha did not achieve liberation too?

He realized liberation, by removing ignorance. Difference may seem to be subtle, but it is crucial.
Nothing wrote:
Quote:
Nobody can escape samsara.


Is this not what the Buddha taught?

Conditioned concept cannot escape conditioned reality. It would be like painted elephant escaping the painting. This cannot happen. This is why I wrote that nobody can escape samsara, as "somebody" is a samsaric concept. Samsaric concepts do not attain liberation.

LastLegend wrote:
Causality is functioning of mind but mind is not bound by causality because if it is bound by causality, we will be bound to suffering forever.

That would be sad, but it's not enough to refute causality. Either you abandon causality as a driving mechanism, or you accept all the consequences. You may try to add a free, independent component, but in that moment everything will collapse.
LastLegend wrote:
If everything exists within the mind, we will experience what we exerts.

I see no ground for such statement. It is enough to see the world as samsaric realm, not need to move it all to unknown container called mind.
Causality + free will model, gives a possibility to actively change reality. People strive to create a better future. You can act, stay neutral, or suppress.
In allowance model you can either strive to bind phenomena, or allow, seeing that they are already liberated, ungrapsable, unbound.
"Dreams and phantoms, flowers in the empty sky; why trouble yourself to seize them?"

It all boils down to one question. Can suppressed phenomena arise?

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 6:35 pm 
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can suppressed phenomena arise, seems to suggest that suppressed phenomena has already risen and thus when arisen, suppressed. for me it seems that suppressed phenomena arises regardless of one suppressing it, it is another word for denial of something or intentional ignorance of something, thus suppressing.

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If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 6:40 pm 
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Right, suppressed is not appropriate word. Let me reformulate.
Can there be arising through something other then liberation? Or can non-liberated things arise?

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 6:43 pm 
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LastLegend wrote:
I understand your intention on allowance or effortlessness. I don't see how causality reveals fatalism, however. Causality is functioning of mind but mind is not bound by causality because if it is bound by causality, we will be bound to suffering forever.

Exactly.....because it gets to a point of percentage where it becomes a one way ticket.....a point of no return.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 6:54 pm 
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LastLegend wrote:
Causality is functioning of mind but mind is not bound by causality because if it is bound by causality, we will be bound to suffering forever.


That would be sad, but it's not enough to refute causality. Either you abandon causality as a driving mechanism, or you accept all the consequences. You may try to add a free, independent component, but in that moment everything will collapse.

all the consequences of what ? accepting causality as a driving mechanism, if you refute that it would suggest suppressing something or denying causality and its factors to karma cause and effect and how it all functions. if we add a free independent components such as our samsaric selves who think that we / us are independent. it doesnt collapse but that is what makes it actually work. does emptiness have causality or bound by causality, karma cause and effect or not. i dont think so. if it is bound it is still free cause it is free from dualities. once you accept all the consequences that the acceptance of causality, karma cause and effect you accept your responsibility over your self, over your karma and your destiny and future lives and liberation.

causality as some independent factor of course is not even a driving mechanism, but seems to be working as an interdependent factor in reality due to many causes and conditions that might give the causes and conditions for causality to arise and be and exist and function as it is.

but what i sense from your sentence you seem to suggest that causality is an independent factor that we have no control over. it might be that regardless of ourselves our being, causality exist, but refuting it is no solution, you are just denying your situation. we have the option to work with our circumstances and our karma and direct our course in the sea of causality and thus be liberated from the bounding effect that it has on us due to karma and delusion.

LastLegend wrote:
If everything exists within the mind, we will experience what we exerts.


Quote:
I see no ground for such statement. It is enough to see the world as samsaric realm, not need to move it all to unknown container called mind.
Causality + free will model, gives a possibility to actively change reality. People strive to create a better future. You can act, stay neutral, or suppress.
In allowance model you can either strive to bind phenomena, or allow, seeing that they are already liberated, ungrapsable, unbound.
"Dreams and phantoms, flowers in the empty sky; why trouble yourself to seize them?"



i see a duality here, samsaric realm/ world and the mind. according to my knowledge samsara actually exists only within our mind. and samsaric realm outside , mind inside is pretty deluded imo.

i have a question, what word or concept would you prefer to use instead of ''mind''? what is the container ? since everything is ''contained'' somewhere or in ''something''...

i think this causality + free will model is good. i like it and it makes reality functionable to proceed on the path.

seeing things liberated, ungraspable, unbound is good. that is the way they are and can appear but if there is still ''you'' seeing that, you are still in samsara and thus not liberated.

_________________
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo


Last edited by KonchokZoepa on Sun Oct 06, 2013 6:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 6:55 pm 
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oushi wrote:
That would be sad, but it's not enough to refute causality. Either you abandon causality as a driving mechanism, or you accept all the consequences. You may try to add a free, independent component, but in that moment everything will collapse.

I see no ground for such statement. It is enough to see the world as samsaric realm, not need to move it all to unknown container called mind.
Causality + free will model, gives a possibility to actively change reality. People strive to create a better future. You can act, stay neutral, or suppress.
In allowance model you can either strive to bind phenomena, or allow, seeing that they are already liberated, ungrapsable, unbound.


I understand that you are saying to abandon total grasping. But I still think you cannot deny causality in that there is an effect for allowance such as liberation. When grasping, there is suffering. When non grasping, non suffering.

Quote:
"Dreams and phantoms, flowers in the empty sky; why trouble yourself to seize them?"

It all boils down to one question. Can suppressed phenomena arise?


I agree that it arises regardless. But can you say there is no free will in allowance?

_________________
NAMO AMITABHA
NAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)
NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)

Linjii
―Listen! Those of you who devote yourselves to the Dharma
must not be afraid of losing your bodies and your lives―


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 6:58 pm 
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oushi wrote:
Right, suppressed is not appropriate word. Let me reformulate.
Can there be arising through something other then liberation? Or can non-liberated things arise?


i think in mulamadhyamakakarika or some other middle way text it is said that phenomena does not arise. it only appears.

to answer the first question. of course there can
and to the second question. of course they can. and they do.

_________________
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 7:18 pm 
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oushi wrote:
Liberation cannot be bound by form, so there cannot be a thing called liberation.
Nothing wrote:
Yet letting go surely cannot liberate? Unless one has already been liberated.
oushi wrote:
Good remark.

You have not understood the true meaning here.

oushi wrote:
Nobody can escape samsara, because liberation is already liberated. Those are not two distinct world, so you cannot leave one and enter the other.

Yet the Buddha escaped and taught how to escape samsara. Equally true, even though they are two distint world, the Buddha had shown us how to do it. One is that of conditioned, the other being unconditioned.
Yet you noted the Buddha "realized liberation".....which is exactly what this is all about.....is it not?

oushi wrote:
In causal reality there is no place for free agent. If reality is ruled by cause and effect, then something like free will has no place in it.

One major issue here is the word "reality".....it is not what it is.....that is not reality!.....it is a pattern created by the balls/strings like that video you presented earlier. If there is no free-will, everything is fixed which is not true.
As already suggested, one needs to understand and comprehend the cause and effect cycle so to fully see the true meaning.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 7:50 pm 
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LastLegend wrote:
But I still think you cannot deny causality in that there is an effect for allowance such as liberation.

I don't have to deny causality, no point in doing that. Anyway, language is based on it, so there is no way o writing anything outside of it.
Moreover, liberation is not an effect of allowance, phenomena are. Liberation is the nature of phenomena.
LastLegend wrote:
I agree that it arises regardless. But can you say there is no free will in allowance?

Problem of free will does not arise. Some activity in the sphere of attitude, which has the capacity to allow or try to suppress, or control, is what we call self.
KonchokZoepa wrote:
i think in mulamadhyamakakarika or some other middle way text it is said that phenomena does not arise. it only appears.

That makes no difference here.
KonchokZoepa wrote:
to answer the first question. of course there can
and to the second question. of course they can. and they do.

Tell me then, what and how can something arise without freedom.

Quote:
since everything is ''contained'' somewhere or in ''something''...

How do you know?
Quote:
if there is still ''you'' seeing that, you are still in samsara and thus not liberated.

Hod do you conclude that?

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Last edited by oushi on Sun Oct 06, 2013 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 7:54 pm 
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oushi wrote:
If looking at rope you take is for a snake, this is delusion. The object does not change. In the same way, you look at liberated things, and you see them as bound. You may call the moment in which you see that everything is liberated, as liberation. This is probably what you call the goal of the path.

So you are looking at rope and you call it rope.....is that not delusion?
The object does change actually, anything that has ever existed will change, it cannot and will not last forever!.....this is termed as impermanent.
A liberated being like the Buddha is bound, just like everyone else, that itself is the condition of existence. One who is liberated or not is still conditioned.

oushi wrote:
He realized liberation, by removing ignorance. Difference may seem to be subtle, but it is crucial.

No difference here. Buddha only taught so to escape samsara and nothing beyond.

oushi wrote:
Conditioned concept cannot escape conditioned reality. It would be like painted elephant escaping the painting. This cannot happen. This is why I wrote that nobody can escape samsara, as "somebody" is a samsaric concept. Samsaric concepts do not attain liberation.

There is no such a thing as a "conditioned reality". Reality itself is reality and it is not conditioned for it to be. When we say nobody or no-one or no-self escapes samsara, even though we read this in a book and one who acts on as if one is selfless, there is a big difference between those who act and those who knows! You are also using the concept of no-self to describe not attaining liberation, which is fabricated because there is a difference between a person who still has a view of self and that of the selfless.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 8:00 pm 
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There is nothing I can reply to, as you are mixing your views with beliefs and expectations. In no way will I try to fulfill, or negate them. You are free to keep them.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 8:49 pm 
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KonchokZoepa wrote:
to answer the first question. of course there can
and to the second question. of course they can. and they do.


Quote:
tell me then, what and how can something arise without freedom.


freedom or not, arising phenomena is / are dependent on causes and conditions, effects are '' bound '' to arise/exist due to theyre respective causes.

and so what? phenomena arise freely or not ? what is the point you are trying to make ?


Quote:
since everything is ''contained'' somewhere or in ''something''...


Quote:
how do you know?


Quote:
that would be sad, but it's not enough to refute causality. Either you abandon causality as a driving mechanism, or you accept all the consequences. You may try to add a free, independent component, but in that moment everything will collapse


Quote:
I see no ground for such statement. It is enough to see the world as samsaric realm, not need to move it all to unknown container called mind.
Causality + free will model, gives a possibility to actively change reality. People strive to create a better future. You can act, stay neutral, or suppress.
In allowance model you can either strive to bind phenomena, or allow, seeing that they are already liberated, ungrapsable, unbound.
"Dreams and phantoms, flowers in the empty sky; why trouble yourself to seize them?"


Quote:
i have a question, what word or concept would you prefer to use instead of ''mind''? what is the container ? since everything is ''contained'' somewhere or in ''something''...


as you can see in its original context you yourself called a mind container, if you dont want to put samsaric world and your mind as two independent ''things'' totally unrelated and unconnceted to each other. what would you term the ''container'' then. i think mind is a good term since it describes our experience. it doesnt have to be a ''container'' but it is quite hard to argue that the mind does not contain our experience including samsara or is not the '' container '' of our experience.

and to answer your question even though you brought it completely out of the context. i dont know . but i experience that this experience wether contained or not is and actually exists in some way and it is not non-existent.




Quote:
if there is still ''you'' seeing that, you are still in samsara and thus not liberated.


Quote:
do you conclude that?


i conclude with that because from what i have learned to be the root cause of samsara is the ''i'' or clinging to an i.

_________________
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 9:13 pm 
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KonchokZoepa wrote:
freedom or not, arising phenomena is / are dependent on causes and conditions, effects are '' bound '' to arise/exist due to theyre respective causes.

This is a thesis not an argument.
You need to return to the beginning of this topic to find out what it is about. ;)

KonchokZoepa wrote:
as you can see in its original context you yourself called a mind container

Check the context! It was a response. I have no need to postulate anything in this matter.
KonchokZoepa wrote:
what would you term the ''container'' then.

And where are boundaries of this container? What''s the point of naming something you don't know?
Quote:
it is quite hard to argue that the mind does not contain our experience including samsara or is not the '' container '' of our experience.

It is hard to localize mind, self, and it's experiences. So, I don't even have to argue about anything. How can I say what mind contains if I cannot locate it? How can I say that it contains my experiences if I cannot find self?
KonchokZoepa wrote:
i conclude with that because from what i have learned to be the root cause of samsara is the ''i'' or clinging to an i.

So, your clinging to your experience as actually existent would be the root cause of samsara:
Quote:
but i experience that this experience wether contained or not is and actually exists in some way and it is not non-existent.

You've learned that you are wrong. But revealing such knots is not the intent of this topic.
It is about allowance as a cure for illness created by causality.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 9:51 pm 
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ok.

p.s if you are suggesting with your last sentence of the response that i have learned that i was wrong about things being non existent, i think this is an issue that you need to address some way or the other to correct your incorrect view

_________________
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 6:32 am 
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You learned that "the root cause of samsara is the ''i'' or clinging to an i". Still, you say: "i experience that this experience wether contained or not is and actually exists...".
If "I" is the source of ignorance, then "I" based views are deluded. Especially when you hold on to a views that something actually exists, because "I" experienced it.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 11:09 am 
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Funny coincidence. I like to listen to Alan Watts voice with music in background.
The interesting part starts at 6:11-7:20.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 11:39 am 
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oushi wrote:
You learned that "the root cause of samsara is the ''i'' or clinging to an i". Still, you say: "i experience that this experience wether contained or not is and actually exists...".
If "I" is the source of ignorance, then "I" based views are deluded. Especially when you hold on to a views that something actually exists, because "I" experienced it.

Understood.

Oushi, can you provide a very good example to illustrate what you mean by the term "allowance" relative to causality so we can get back on to topic and maybe better understand what the true meaning is? Clearly, it is not understood if you understand.


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