Mondo Zen, Integral Zen (tm)

Re: Mondo Zen, Integral Zen (tm)

Postby coldwater » Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:59 pm

Hi Abu,

Thanks Abu, I do try to find a clear place in my heart for each person's practice and approach. Since some of these people live in my Chinese medicine practitioner's community and I work with them...to foster anything but would only bring me inner grief and conflict.

Your opinions are interesting and I agree with you on your ideas of marketing the dharma. A whole 'nother thread could come out of the various 'styles' and marketing schemes, 'center' model, membership levels and perks and so forth that exist in the world of Buddhist religionists.

Though the mystery remains- what has your experience and practice with Mondo/Mondo practitioners been like? How deep does your study and practice with them go? What is the foundation of your opinion of it/them besides what you saw on the internet or heard? Do you have more than that to be making sweeping claims of their realizations, authenticity and practice?

Also can you share the link where you draw your quote? I'd like to follow up with the one priest I know about it since her dharma talk was not in line with that at all. As a different picture was drawn at the one-day sit and explanation of Mondo that I heard. I'd be happy to share her response to it if you are interested.


-lance
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Re: Mondo Zen, Integral Zen (tm)

Postby Anders » Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:04 pm

Astus wrote:
Jinzang wrote:If the goal of Zen is to see through delusion, how is a modernized Zen going to see through the delusions of modernism? The truth is neither tradition or modernism is going to save us, but it easier for a modern person to see the faults of tradition and resist them than to see the faults of modernism.


The delusion to be seen through is the attachment to identity. Modernism, traditionalism, and any other form of presentation are only meant to make the realisation accessible. As long as a teaching leads to correct view it is an authentic method. The important question is the efficiency of the way, not the embellishment used to attract people.


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I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

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Re: Mondo Zen, Integral Zen (tm)

Postby floating_abu » Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:31 pm

coldwater wrote:Hi Abu,

Thanks Abu, I do try to find a clear place in my heart for each person's practice and approach. Since some of these people live in my Chinese medicine practitioner's community and I work with them...to foster anything but would only bring me inner grief and conflict.

Your opinions are interesting and I agree with you on your ideas of marketing the dharma. A whole 'nother thread could come out of the various 'styles' and marketing schemes, 'center' model, membership levels and perks and so forth that exist in the world of Buddhist religionists.

Though the mystery remains- what has your experience and practice with Mondo/Mondo practitioners been like? How deep does your study and practice with them go? What is the foundation of your opinion of it/them besides what you saw on the internet or heard? Do you have more than that to be making sweeping claims of their realizations, authenticity and practice?

Also can you share the link where you draw your quote? I'd like to follow up with the one priest I know about it since her dharma talk was not in line with that at all. As a different picture was drawn at the one-day sit and explanation of Mondo that I heard. I'd be happy to share her response to it if you are interested.


-lance


Hi Lance,

Oh now you are closely associated with this priest and can even share their version of this defensible piece? And you also wish to clarify this worrying perception that I dug up after one second of a Google search?

Please don't bother - please market elsewhere if you wish, it is quite tiresome and this constant exertion of yours to protect Mondo's identity is rather sad.

As an "objective" one time half day incidental (silent?) sitter with Mondo - it is clear you are heavily invested in the presentation and defence of Mondo Zen (TM). Actually that was clear to me from the start.

And if you do originate instead with this deeply entrenched belief and deep understanding of their ethos and 'authenticity' :quoteunquote:, from an accidental "half day sit", then it is even more worrying.

My comments stand for all to read in context.And I will say one more time: their ethos and the writings of their people are open to scrutiny and analysis within the confines of genuine Buddhist/Zen training and teachings.

Your first post was subtly misleading which is why I clarified it. If Mondo is so worried about Buddhist interpretation and scrutiny they should market it under another banner - since it does not stand up to scrutiny anyway and my concerns are for new students. However, the good news for you is, there will always be someone joining groups like yours, and they will even pay for it, whilst they believe it, which is unfortunate if they do not gain the truth of the teachings.

Do no harm in the Buddhist context is also to try not to misguide and in those confines, the koan techniques that needed 30 years to refine, demonstrates not skill - but a sad misrepresentation of Zen Buddhism/koan practice.

Do no harm.

Best wishes,

Abu
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Re: Mondo Zen, Integral Zen (tm)

Postby floating_abu » Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:40 pm

And more from this clarifying piece:

I had been hearing mention of Jun Po Roshi a few times around the Boulder Integral community, but the first time I encountered him was at the live filming of one of Stuart Davis' Sex, God, Rock N' Roll episodes where Jun Po was to be the featured guest. Within the first 30 seconds of the interview, I got the hit that this Rinzai Zen master was not your average bear (You can see the first couple of minutes of the interview here). I left all of Stuart's shows feeling shifted and lifted, but this particular night left me inspired to explore, adventure, and challenge myself further in the risky dimensions of consciousness.

I continued my exploration of Jun Po's teachings through recordings he did with some of my friend's podcasts: Buddhist Geeks, and The New Man. I was intrigued by the Hollow Bones Five Training Elements, a progressive approach honoring traditional zen training while propelling it with components in alignment with the Integral Life Practice 4 Core Modules. One of the training elements that ILP does not address but that I'm particularly intrigued by is Sacred Stewardship. I heard stories of presentations that Jun Po put on involving chickens that really piqued my curiosity. You can hear Jun Po describing this fowl presentation in his interview with Tripp Lanier here.....

The retreat was held at a lodge in Allenspark Colorado, just a mile from the gorgeous St. Malo's chapel where a portion of the Integral Contemplative Christianity event with Father Thomas Keating was held in 2006. The structure transcends and includes a traditional, formal zen sesshin--setting the foundation with a rock-solid container; the idea is to cut down on distraction as much as possible to allow everyone the opportunity to deeply focus on each moment.

...These long sets of sitting and walking meditation make up only the Genuine Insight portion of the Hollow Bones Five Element Training methodology. Fortunately, Mondo Zen offers four more allies to complement this bold journey. Every morning and evening we would have Conscious Embodiment sessions where we would do various qi gong, yoga, and kung fu forms to keep our minds in our bodies, our focus on our breath, and our bodies limber and strong to endure the long sits. Each day we would also engage in the Mondo Zen Koan Ego Deconstruction and Emotional Awareness Intervention process that Roshi has been fine-tuning for over 30 years. This process combines Socratic dialogue with Neuro-Linguistic Programming to systematically take apart the participant's false sense of self, and then give them a key to access the deeper, ever-present state of meditation whenever emotionally challenging charges come looking for violent responses.

The training is effective, my work is laid-out before me, all I have to do is choose how I want to live my life. I want to live my life with integrity, and this is why I practice. I look forward to my next deep taste of this life and another Mondo Zen sesshin... I hope to see you there.

Submitted by Robert MacNaughton on Tue, 05/26/2009 - 18:11

Mondo Zen


AND from Venwoude International :

Jun Po Denis Kelly
Live life more gracefull and fierce, in the middle of the fire

In this 7 day Mondo Zen retreat not only your connection to your true nature will deepen, you will most certainly find your specific Bodhisatva-way to live life more gracefull and fierce, in the middle of the fire!

Mondo Zen™ is based on Japanese and Chinese Zen, updated for the 21st Century. Mondo Zen™ transcends the hierarchical / authoritarian, gender-biased and constraining monastic aspects of traditional Zen in favor of practical, experiential “in the world” engagement. Relying only on direct personal experience—as taught by the Buddha himself—it does not allow mythic constructs to complicate its philosophical orientation.


Wow - thanks Lance for urging me to read more and more about Mondo Zen. It has definitely clarified matters considerably. What a load of bollocks, no wonder your lines above sounded familiar. It echoes the same marketing spin that Mondo uses. It's really not cool to do that.

I would escalate it to cult-like and how very sad to misguide people like this for a dime.

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Re: Mondo Zen, Integral Zen (tm)

Postby floating_abu » Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:50 pm

Yudron wrote:I don't know anything about Zen, but doesn't it seem like a bunch of serious students trying to find their way forward after their main lineage holder Eido Shimano repeatedly disgraced himself? They are in a difficult position.


They would be better to go back to practicing with a real teacher, than now trying to commercialise and mismatch, market their 'product' IMO. Zen is not a product anyway so to think so is already misguided, but I guess everyone, nearly everyone anyway, tries to make a buck...
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Re: Mondo Zen, Integral Zen (tm)

Postby coldwater » Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:24 pm

Hello Abu,

Reading is not tasting and without tasting you cannot know the flavor. Reading blogs and forums can be interpreted infinite ways and without practice in something you cannot truly know it for what it is.

I encouraged you to share you own experiences and insights as it would be more useful in explaining what Mondo Zen is/is not rather than only your opinion of the Buddhist world in general. Publicly discussing and criticizing another's practice or method without experience in it is not very fruitful.

If internet sources of people you just randomly found are now valid sources, feel free to provide the links so others can make their own assessments as well. Sharing their experiences does not constitute sharing your own.

You discredit me based on being an internet source and opinion but use the sources and opinions of others who are equally knowable to validate your own views. I kindly ask that if you have time to read other's blogs about their practice, then discuss their flaws and make judgements to discredit another abstract identity on the internet...go practice with those misguided people instead and talk with them in person or by email. If you find they are seriously misled become better friends with them so you can help them not be deceived. If I am invalid and they are invalid on the same principles then a invalid conversation has been happening....why for?

So without you providing any of your own personal experience with Mondo and ignoring the request...I feel like I should discontinue this conversation publicly from my side as it has seems to go beyond the intent of the thread.
-lance
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Re: Mondo Zen, Integral Zen (tm)

Postby floating_abu » Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:12 pm

coldwater wrote:You discredit me based on being an internet source and opinion but use the sources and opinions of others who are equally knowable to validate your own views. I kindly ask that if you have time to read other's blogs about their practice, then discuss their flaws and make judgements to discredit another abstract identity on the internet...go practice with those misguided people instead and talk with them in person or by email. If you find they are seriously misled become better friends with them so you can help them not be deceived. If I am invalid and they are invalid on the same principles then a invalid conversation has been happening....why for?

So without you providing any of your own personal experience with Mondo and ignoring the request...I feel like I should discontinue this conversation publicly from my side as it has seems to go beyond the intent of the thread.
-lance


Hi Lance,

I apologise for the Tripadvisor comment, but apart from that I found that you discredited yourself through 1. the assertions you made and 2. your attempt to portray yourself as distant, objective and a newcomer to the group providing an 'objective' review

coldwater wrote:go practice with those misguided people instead and talk with them in person or by email. If you find they are seriously misled become better friends with them so you can help them not be deceived. If I am invalid and they are invalid on the same principles then a invalid conversation has been happening....why for?


I don't think they are misguided, or invalid, or deceived: this is what this group is premised on, and probably believes. They are probably even profiting from this and there are probably many well intentioned people in the group even.

I am saying these things for the general audience and people who are not yet familiar enough with Buddhist practice to differentiate between pyscho-analytical spiritual marketing combinations - and Buddhist practice. For these newcomers, there is still an informed, more compassionate choice that can be made.

coldwater wrote:So without you providing any of your own personal experience with Mondo and ignoring the request...I feel like I should discontinue this conversation publicly from my side as it has seems to go beyond the intent of the thread.
-lance


I might give an opinion on Tibetan Buddhism or Catholicism or Scientology too. I do not need to practice to gauge from the writings and impressions provided. Your attempt to throw the argument on my requirement to have detailed in-depth training with this group is farcical, but a good try. i.e. I would also not encourage Scientology as a general stance and I will not undergo their intensive cleansing sessions to feel like I can say that first.

I could be wrong, of course, but from:

1. your initial post and the misconceptions presented in there
2. the posted review of a Mondo sesshin (which also sounded rather marketing like) but more worrying, with embedded methodologies and NPT techniques,
3. the description of Mondo Zen in a retreat center

4. the general understanding now that this group is from Eido's tree
5. your persistence and strong assocation with MZ which belied your initial portrayal as a distant, accidental half day sitter

- I do not have the confidence and my posts stand.

Best wishes,

Abu
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Re: Mondo Zen, Integral Zen (tm)

Postby floating_abu » Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:22 pm

coldwater wrote:Hello Abu,

Reading is not tasting and without tasting you cannot know the flavor. Reading blogs and forums can be interpreted infinite ways and without practice in something you cannot truly know it for what it is.

I encouraged you to share you own experiences and insights as it would be more useful in explaining what Mondo Zen is/is not rather than only your opinion of the Buddhist world in general. Publicly discussing and criticizing another's practice or method without experience in it is not very fruitful.

If internet sources of people you just randomly found are now valid sources, feel free to provide the links so others can make their own assessments as well. Sharing their experiences does not constitute sharing your own.

You discredit me based on being an internet source and opinion but use the sources and opinions of others who are equally knowable to validate your own views. I kindly ask that if you have time to read other's blogs about their practice, then discuss their flaws and make judgements to discredit another abstract identity on the internet...go practice with those misguided people instead and talk with them in person or by email. If you find they are seriously misled become better friends with them so you can help them not be deceived. If I am invalid and they are invalid on the same principles then a invalid conversation has been happening....why for?

So without you providing any of your own personal experience with Mondo and ignoring the request...I feel like I should discontinue this conversation publicly from my side as it has seems to go beyond the intent of the thread.
-lance


And since you insist on pushing further, here is the blog source you would like to discredit.
http://integrallife.com/member/robert-m ... /mondo-zen

And then there is the natural link back to http://www.mondozen.org/ from the affiliated site

It is from your organisation's Director of Marketing!! :pig:

https://hollowbones.worldsecuresystems. ... ?ID=140579

If you have questions about retreat content, please contact:

Jun Po Roshi, 83rd Patriarch of the Rinzai School, Founder of Hollow Bones and Mondo Zen: junpo@mondozen.org or 541-890-0558
Doshin Roshi, Dharma Successor to Jun Po, 84th Patriarch (unavailable September 10-18): doshin@integralzen.org or 720-984-9512
Kogen Keith Martin-Smith, Sensei, Jun Po's biographer and Mondo Zen practitioner (unavailable August 26-Septmeber 7): keith@keithmartinsmith.com or 215-239-4704
Robert MacNaughton, Director of Marketing for Integral Life, Mondo Zen practitioner (unavailable August 26-September 7): robert@integrallife.com
Angela Raines, Member Support Specialist for Integral Life, Mondo Zen practitioner: araines@integrallife.com or 720-432-7417


Precious! I knew it was a marketing piece - hilarious..and sad.

This is getting worse with more inquiry...

But it was as I suspected.

Therefore your DIRECTOR OF MARKETING just posted that blog entry above with detailed praise about the unique systems by that Junpo dude who was praised as a "master". AND acting as if it is an objective, distant post..familiar anyone? Yes, the post you can now choose to "clarify" with this priest you just happen to know.

What an interesting circle - so transparent - but probably just effective enough for the market you target.

How sad what you guys do to Buddhist practice and people who seek the genuine seed of realisation. How pitiful indeed.

Thankyou for so clearly and unequivocally showing how Mondo Zen Integral Zen (TM) conducts itself.

Abu
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Re: Mondo Zen, Integral Zen (tm)

Postby Jikan » Wed Sep 25, 2013 1:03 pm

The Heart of Zen represents the next generation of spiritual books because it addresses awakening and spiritual life within the context of creating lasting change through the integration of spiritual insight into the flow and flux of everyday life. Jun Po Denis Kelly Roshi explains how well trained meditation students may learn to be nonreactive to emotions, but they seldom learn how to transform their negative emotions (and the ego that holds them) as part of a more deeply integrated, lived spirituality. This book describes precisely what this means in great detail and with exercises for the reader to follow. Part discussion on these intricate topics and part experiential guide, The Heart of Zen offers a one-of-a-kind take on enlightenment, emotional maturity, and the integration required to take one's seat in true liberation.


quoted from here:

http://integrallife.com/ken-wilber-dialogues/heart-zen

I'm not so sure that what Mr Kelly is proposing, "the integration of spiritual insight into the flow and flux of everyday life," is such a new idea. Trungpa's Meditation in Action will be forty years old soon; there are surely other examples.

One wonders how the other claims Mr Kelly & Mr Wilber make hold up.

:coffee:
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Re: Mondo Zen, Integral Zen (tm)

Postby yan kong » Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:05 pm

I have not read the entire back and forth between Lance and Floating Abu because it largely seemed to be based on misunderstanding, though I could be wrong.

The way I read Lance's first contribution to this thread was simply to give a first hand experience with Mondo Zen as information which is different from that information which can be found on the internet about Mondo Zen. Though I could be wrong in the way I read it because honestly I am lost as to why the arguement over the experience has gone on for so many lengthy posts.
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Re: Mondo Zen, Integral Zen (tm)

Postby Jikan » Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:08 pm

yan kong wrote:I have not read the entire back and forth between Lance and Floating Abu because it largely seemed to be based on misunderstanding, though I could be wrong.

The way I read Lance's first contribution to this thread was simply to give a first hand experience with Mondo Zen as information which is different from that information which can be found on the internet about Mondo Zen. Though I could be wrong in the way I read it because honestly I am lost as to why the arguement over the experience has gone on for so many lengthy posts.


I think it's likely that the everyday practice of this group may differ significantly from the internet hype they've chosen to participate in. Someone with first-hand experience is going to have a different perspective from someone who is only reading the promotional materials online. This begs the question of why they'd choose to involve themselves in such hype to begin with.

It also gives reason for optimism, though, because it suggests that there may be more than meets the eye with the Mondo Zen group. I hope so: I wish them all the best in practice.

:cheers:
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Re: Mondo Zen, Integral Zen (tm)

Postby Qing Tian » Sat Sep 28, 2013 1:52 am

The way I read Lance's first contribution to this thread was simply to give a first hand experience with Mondo Zen as information which is different from that information which can be found on the internet about Mondo Zen. Though I could be wrong in the way I read it because honestly I am lost as to why the arguement over the experience has gone on for so many lengthy posts.


Having had a fair amount of contact with people from various cults, including groups such as the JWs and Scientology, Lance's thread came across as disturbingly similiar to the way cult followers/promoters ply their wares. This may be inadvertent, or it could be something more sinister. Either way, as Jikan also stated, I wish them all the best in their practice.
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Re: Mondo Zen, Integral Zen (tm)

Postby coldwater » Sat Sep 28, 2013 5:21 am

The long posts between Abu were unfortunate and I kept responding to the series of her accusations about me. In retrospect I should have ignored it earlier or it could have been moderated.

Also having experience with cults, almost all of the dharma organizations in the West are cult franchises and have carefully crafted (manipulative?) wording about Dana, inviting generosity and so forth. Most are based around a teacher who is "spiritual advisor" with a close devotee as CEO of the non-profit. Mondo ain't my jam but they are transparent and will attract the students that want to drop big bucks- but my experienc of the local group wasn't money based and did "just sitting". I think it less tacky than putting " $125 dana" and then to shame for not giving the suggested "donation".

As Jikan said ( and as I have experienced with other dharma organizations) their online and corporate presentation is at times different than the individual/local groups. How is that disturbing? I wanted to respond with actual experience rather than speculative witch hunting based on Internet readings. If the organization is ill intentioned it won't last long.
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Re: Mondo Zen, Integral Zen (tm)

Postby Qing Tian » Sat Sep 28, 2013 7:40 am

... their online and corporate presentation is at times different than the individual/local groups. How is that disturbing?


Because it lacks transparency and invites suspicions of duplicity.

It's an observation not an accusation. Given that I cannot tell from the promotional blurb, and your original account, how legitimate or honest this group is it seems that erring on the side of caution is quite warranted.

As an aside, the use of the term 'Mondo' lends the whole enterprise a sense of tackiness. A kind of plastic Zen for the FOMO people. Adding the trademark sign is just cheap beyond compare...
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Re: Mondo Zen, Integral Zen (tm)

Postby coldwater » Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:03 am

Agreed, and I think that observation is not unique but a given because the Internet and reality are not the same. The Internet isn't a dynamic experience of any situation.

Were you intending to practice with them- thus the interest? I would say that site might be more representative of their founder rather than the other teachers... But that is based on the one teacher I know. Also I would suggest checking out other Zen groups before as it seems like you already are not into their "product". You would probably save some money as well.

Slightly off topic...but I see a lot of parallels in this and other Zen and Tibetan orgs with what is/has happened in yoga communities in America. Leave it to America to make everything into a product. Yoga gained popularity around the same time in America and has it's fair share of scandals or those looking to sell the dharma. Now the camps are quite distinct and people can choose to buy it, comment on those selling it or ignore both an carry on with a practice. The yoga community at large has had to deal with the TMing, documentation, certification and marketing of it's spirituality. As a result muh dialogue around it collecitvely. In my opinion I feel that discussion is still behind for Buddhism. Check out the recent Anusara empire and implosion, another (tacky) TM org. Fell apart of course due to sex, money and power consolidation.
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Re: Mondo Zen, Integral Zen (tm)

Postby Qing Tian » Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:38 am

I have little interest in Mondo Zen (TM) beyond a small commentary from the sidelines, as it were. Others can draw their own inferences.
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Re: Mondo Zen, Integral Zen (tm)

Postby Jikan » Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:27 pm

Qing Tian wrote:
The way I read Lance's first contribution to this thread was simply to give a first hand experience with Mondo Zen as information which is different from that information which can be found on the internet about Mondo Zen. Though I could be wrong in the way I read it because honestly I am lost as to why the arguement over the experience has gone on for so many lengthy posts.


Having had a fair amount of contact with people from various cults, including groups such as the JWs and Scientology, Lance's thread came across as disturbingly similiar to the way cult followers/promoters ply their ware. This may be inadvertent, or it could be something more sinister. Either way, as Jikan also stated, I wish them all the best in their practice.


I am inclined to agree (particularly with the bolded portion). Part of the reason I brought this thread up to begin with and continue to contribute it concerns the point of contact between contemporary Buddhist practice (in this instance a Zen community) and what is, in my opinion at least, a cult* centered around the personality of Ken Wilber (that's why you see the word "integral" over and over again). This intersection comes through in these recent outpourings:

http://s3.amazonaws.com/integral-life-m ... -1-13.html

http://integrallife.com/event/integral- ... ember-9-16

("premium" content is the stuff you have to pay for)

What does this convergence mean from the point of view of Buddhist practice? I think this is an open question.


*for instance, see Jeff Meyerhoff's book on Wilber, published online, and more tellingly the very public meltdown Wilber put himself through in response to that book (the "earpy" episode). I should add that this is my own opinion here, and not DharmaWheel's or anyone else's. :spy:
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