Thoughts and impulses

[Astus]

this is realisation of selflessness, or optiness of person or subject
one gives up all conditioning of the grasping self.. then you are the sound itself

He advises to be the sound, says nothing about realising that there is no self, rather it is the result of becoming the sound that one abandons the subjective viewer. As the quote says: "The "me" that perceives the sound becomes one with the sound, leaving only the sound itself. This is emptying yourself"

So, there is still nothing said about how one "becomes the sound", if that is not simply concentration.

This is realisation of emptiness of object.. in deep realisation of selflessness you realise finally nature of all phenomena.

If with the realisation of no-self comes the realisation of the emptiness of object, then there is no point in differentiating the two.

Then one attains complete enlightenment, not only selflessness of person..

Since with selflessness comes objectlessness, there can be no such thing as realising only no-self.

Teachings of Shikan taza as it is popular in the West concerning sitting came in the XX century.. it was work of Sawaki Kodo..

There are other Soto teachers in the West besides the followers of Sawaki. Like the students of Shunryu Suzuki, Houn Jiyu-Kennett, Anzan Hoshin, Dainin Katagiri.

unspecified manner - no, it is in samadhi of selflessness it is not unspecified

See above. If the samadhi of selflessness means realising the emptiness of objects, then there is no difference at all. Also, it has not been clarified what else is "becoming the sound" if not concentration. Realising selflessness is not a method but a result.

shikan taza contains this 'double' realisation of selflessness of subject and object

Emptiness of self and phenomena is a general Mahayana doctrine, not a technique.

Two stages are in postion of madhyamaka of Nagarjuna

Do you mean the two truths or the twofold emptiness? In any case, they are not methods.

Dogen speaks about this kind of realisation

Maezumi says "become that sound yourself". It's not a realisation, it is an instruction to do it. Or do you think one can just do realisation? If yes, how?

[Matylda]

This is realisation of emptiness of object.. in deep realisation of selflessness you realise finally nature of all phenomena.

No, it is not..Concenration means 3 thing, subject object and action istelf i.e. concentration.

If with the realisation of no-self comes the realisation of the emptiness of object, then there is no point in differentiating the two.

Yes it is indeed so..but only if realisation contains both at once.. however as I said before it does not come all at once, ... maybe I did not post it before...


Since with selflessness comes objectlessness, there can be no such thing as realising only no-self.

Well in Japan there is clear distinction between selfflessness of person and selflessness of object. Realising only no-self of the self itself is not complete yet. To realise both emptiness/selflessness of both one may call complete

There are other Soto teachers in the West besides the followers of Sawaki. Like the students of Shunryu Suzuki, Houn Jiyu-Kennett, Anzan Hoshin, Dainin Katagiri.

Most of them came from the group of Bokusan Zenji, same like Sawaki..
Jiyu Kennet could use koans.. Her teacher Koho Chisan was inka holder of rinzai roshi Nantembo of Takuju lineage


See above. If the samadhi of selflessness means realising the emptiness of objects, then there is no difference at all. Also, it has not been clarified what else is "becoming the sound" if not concentration. Realising selflessness is not a method but a result.

What is difference in soto? Practice and enlightenment are one, not two.. it is sepcific for this teaching and also meaning of shikan taza..


Emptiness of self and phenomena is a general Mahayana doctrine, not a technique.

So we may safely say that there is no method in zen...

Do you mean the two truths or the twofold emptiness? In any case, they are not methods.

Two kinds of emptiness, self and object.
As I found example

In ignorance, there is hearer hearing sound.
In anatta, in hearing, only sound.
Yet sound has no true inherent nature (empty),

Both the person and phenomena are empty...

Maezumi says "become that sound yourself". It's not a realisation, it is an instruction to do it. Or do you think one can just do realisation? If yes, how?

Here instruction or method and realisation are not two... to understand it one has to follow realised master...
Dualistic approach to zen practice does not make any sense..

But Roshi made it clear in next statement:
The "me" that perceives the sound becomes one with the sound, leaving only the sound itself. This is emptying yourself . . .

This is selflessness/emptiness of person..

and further:

But there still remains the dharma, the object. So next, empty that too!

This is selflessness of phenomena in this case the sound...

And finally it comes:

Again, by really being thus, you become unaware of even being thus. This is a state of samadhi: both person and dharma are empty; subject and object are empty. This is called the great death.

Here samadhi, means samadhi of selfflessness, and great death is complete enlightenment, which is nr 8 picture in 十 牛 図  or 10 pictures of an ox... it is what Maezumi talks here about.. nothing about concentration, etc.

In describing the great death, Dogen Zenjui says, 'body and mind drop away.' When body and mind spontaneously drop away, you transcend the bondage of limited consciousness.

Here again instruction and realisation are not two... to understand it one has to follow realised master...

There is nothing more I may add... the rest is work of realised teacher not mine...
Generally I just refuted claim that it is about concentration of which Roshi did not talk about

[Astus]

1. only if realisation contains both at once.. however as I said before it does not come all at once
1.2 in Japan there is clear distinction between selfflessness of person and selflessness of object. Realising only no-self of the self itself is not complete yet. To realise both emptiness/selflessness of both one may call complete
2. What is difference in soto? Practice and enlightenment are one, not two.. it is sepcific for this teaching and also meaning of shikan taza..
2.1 So we may safely say that there is no method in zen...
2.2 Here instruction or method and realisation are not two... to understand it one has to follow realised master...

That is, you say:

Realisation doesn't contain both, and there are two stages. At the same time, practice is enlightenment and there is no method. To understand what all it is, one needs to follow a realised master.

Those are three contradictory statements. If there is no method, one cannot move even from unrealised to realised, much less from a lower realisation to a higher one. Following a realised master is meaningless, because there is nothing at all such a person can say or do, because there is no path at all, no method, nothing to teach or transmit. Even some magical version of handing over enlightenment is impossible, because that would still need a method to do it.

Generally I just refuted claim that it is about concentration of which Roshi did not talk about

So, instead of taking the statement "becoming the sound" as a concentration method, what you propose is an impossibility.

- We both agree that shikantaza does not involve concentration.
- We both agree that shikantaza is practice-enlightenment.
- What we do not agree on is that the quote from Maezumi is an instruction for shikantaza.

As I see it, it cannot be, and one of the reasons is that in shikantaza there are no two stages of realising separately the emptiness of self and the emptiness of phenomena, one has full realisation right from the beginning. It is also not the case that there is no method, since zazen can be described clearly and precisely, just as it's done on Soto Zen's official website, and even on the Rinzai-Obaku official site.

[Matylda]

1. only if realisation contains both at once.. however as I said before it does not come all at once
1.2 in Japan there is clear distinction between selfflessness of person and selflessness of object. Realising only no-self of the self itself is not complete yet. To realise both emptiness/selflessness of both one may call complete
2. What is difference in soto? Practice and enlightenment are one, not two.. it is sepcific for this teaching and also meaning of shikan taza..
2.1 So we may safely say that there is no method in zen...
2.2 Here instruction or method and realisation are not two... to understand it one has to follow realised master...

That is, you say:

Realisation doesn't contain both, and there are two stages. At the same time, practice is enlightenment and there is no method. To understand what all it is, one needs to follow a realised master.

Those are three contradictory statements. If there is no method, one cannot move even from unrealised to realised, much less from a lower realisation to a higher one. Following a realised master is meaningless, because there is nothing at all such a person can say or do, because there is no path at all, no method, nothing to teach or transmit. Even some magical version of handing over enlightenment is impossible, because that would still need a method to do it.

Generally I just refuted claim that it is about concentration of which Roshi did not talk about

So, instead of taking the statement "becoming the sound" as a concentration method, what you propose is an impossibility.

- We both agree that shikantaza does not involve concentration.
- We both agree that shikantaza is practice-enlightenment.
- What we do not agree on is that the quote from Maezumi is an instruction for shikantaza.

As I see it, it cannot be, and one of the reasons is that in shikantaza there are no two stages of realising separately the emptiness of self and the emptiness of phenomena, one has full realisation right from the beginning. It is also not the case that there is no method, since zazen can be described clearly and precisely, just as it's done on Soto Zen's official website, and even on the Rinzai-Obaku official site.

Then you just refuted what Roshi has said... it is just danger of intellectual pursue and not following true master...

[Matylda]

What you may find on general websites of rinzai and soto are very basic instructions how to sit in zazen, how to regulate body breathing and mind.... those are not instructions you may receive from the master.. it is just very outer knowledge of zen for not informed or rather public outer presentation for interested.

However when we look at Maezumi's statement it has nothing to do with the method of concentration, simple instructions etc. It is about practice-realisation which are inseperable. Mixing these two presentations makes even more confusion.

Moreover Maezumi Roshi wites extremely clearly about two kinds of emptiness.. whether one accpets it or not is not my concern.. the idea of two kinds of selflessness is not strange at all. And Roshi just writes about it. Finally presented inseperability or completeness when both are realised becoming one complete realisation.
To make it just simple instruction for concentration and writing that his words are too big, means that one does not understand his purpot.

Of course my explanation may not be clear for you or anyone, but it does not matter.. what matters is that such things should be consulted with teacher, genuine master... neither me nor anyone else here can do it, even if one shows superior intelectual skills, since in zen practice it does not play any role. What matters is realisation even if it seems to condradict intellectual understanding.

[Astus]

What you may find on general websites of rinzai and soto are very basic instructions how to sit in zazen, how to regulate body breathing and mind.... those are not instructions you may receive from the master.. it is just very outer knowledge of zen for not informed or rather public outer presentation for interested.

In that case, even though there is no method in Zen, it sounds quite complicated and layered.

However when we look at Maezumi's statement it has nothing to do with the method of concentration, simple instructions etc. It is about practice-realisation which are inseperable. Mixing these two presentations makes even more confusion.

So, here is a more complete quote, to put the original one in context:

"Sitting and just thinking about all sorts of things, one after another, is not zazen; in fact, it's daydreaming! So when sitting, cast aside all these involvements and affairs; just try to sit well.
Occasionally I say "just sit," but you may find that a little hard to do. So you can do it gradually: First try to make yourself empty. If you are working on koans or on breathing, totally put yourself into your koan or into your breathing. Let it occupy you completely.
If you are practicing shikantaza, it's especially hard to do this. In all probability, you are not "just sitting," but "just thinking," "just imagining," or just something else. So in order to get past all that and truly just sit, you must try to cut off clinging to the senses.
When you hear a sound, instead of remaining outside of it, and thereby fighting it, just become that sound yourself. ..."
(The Art of Just Sitting, p 83)

That is, he gives the "becoming the sound" section as a preliminary method, not as equivalent to just sitting.

[Matylda]

What you may find on general websites of rinzai and soto are very basic instructions how to sit in zazen, how to regulate body breathing and mind.... those are not instructions you may receive from the master.. it is just very outer knowledge of zen for not informed or rather public outer presentation for interested.

In that case, even though there is no method in Zen, it sounds quite complicated and layered.

However when we look at Maezumi's statement it has nothing to do with the method of concentration, simple instructions etc. It is about practice-realisation which are inseperable. Mixing these two presentations makes even more confusion.

So, here is a more complete quote, to put the original one in context:

"Sitting and just thinking about all sorts of things, one after another, is not zazen; in fact, it's daydreaming! So when sitting, cast aside all these involvements and affairs; just try to sit well.
Occasionally I say "just sit," but you may find that a little hard to do. So you can do it gradually: First try to make yourself empty. If you are working on koans or on breathing, totally put yourself into your koan or into your breathing. Let it occupy you completely.
If you are practicing shikantaza, it's especially hard to do this. In all probability, you are not "just sitting," but "just thinking," "just imagining," or just something else. So in order to get past all that and truly just sit, you must try to cut off clinging to the senses.
When you hear a sound, instead of remaining outside of it, and thereby fighting it, just become that sound yourself. ..."
(The Art of Just Sitting, p 83)

That is, he gives the "becoming the sound" section as a preliminary method, not as equivalent to just sitting.

But it concerns not only sitting but all positions or activities of the body.. Here he specifically refred to sitting, since this is about sitting zazen. There is no contradiction..
Yes zen prctice is complicated for its extreme simplicity.. 'put yourself' or 'being occupied completely' does not mean concentration, as I siad before that concentration involoves 3 things.. Here he speaks of completeness or totality it is what it means.. For the freshman it will be concentration like since begginers do not know the state of complete absorption, therefore it is easily changed into tension of concentration.

[Matylda]

Moreover when Roshi says ''you must try to cut off clinging to the senses'' again it is not concentration but complete relax of body and mind.To say mind might be enough. But it is not doing of 'cutting' in the common sense of the word. Since one has to 'let go' of everything the only way is to relax, not to concentrate. But it does not mean to fall into nothingness or dulness.. again one needs to consult realised master.. it is not my or anyone else work here on this forum.. this is not place to give instructions by not authorized like us.

[White Lotus]

attainment of selfnessness and dropping of body, mind and then consciousness are complicating "this" and are not "sudden".