zen is hard or easy, for a lot or few ?

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mansurhirbi87
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zen is hard or easy, for a lot or few ?

Post by mansurhirbi87 »

Brothers and sisters, i'd like to know your opinion, what do you think about : zen is hard or easy, for a lot or few ?

/\
White Lotus
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Re: zen is hard or easy, for a lot or few ?

Post by White Lotus »

Zen is easy if you see that everything is zen. All actions, thoughts, arisings, ceasings, concepts and levels are empty: so why worry about them. Your life and you are Zen just as you are. Zen is difficult because it is hard to appreciate emptiness. But actually no appreciation of emptiness is needed. We make Zen as hard or as easy for ourselves as we want to. Enlightenment is emptiness and every'thing' is empty. Tom. :smile:
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
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Könchok Thrinley
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Re: zen is hard or easy, for a lot or few ?

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

I dare say from my limited experience that Zen is (just like any other buddhist path) very hard at the beginning but once it is mastered it is easier than breathing. :tongue:
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

For those who do virtuous actions,
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For those who do non-virtuous actions,
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Astus
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Re: zen is hard or easy, for a lot or few ?

Post by Astus »

One day, while the Layman was meditating in his sitting hut, he suddenly cried out, “It s hard, hard, hard! And I've put ten coats of linseed oil on this platform, too!”
His wife said, “Its easy, easy, easy! Just turn your eyes to the floor, lower your feet to it, and be on your way!“
Ling-chao said, “It's neither hard nor easy! The mind of the Patriarchs is in every blade of grass!“

(The Sayings of Layman P'ang, p 113, tr James Green)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
mansurhirbi87
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Re: zen is hard or easy, for a lot or few ?

Post by mansurhirbi87 »

i guess i should be more precise : do you think is it the best way for everybody. it look likes to me that it's hard and for few people
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Astus
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Re: zen is hard or easy, for a lot or few ?

Post by Astus »

mansurhirbi87 wrote:i guess i should be more precise : do you think is it the best way for everybody. it look likes to me that it's hard and for few people
Few people care hard enough to bother to comprehend the very simple teaching of Zen. So the rest remain confused.

The closing paragraph of Huangbo's Essentials of the Transmission of Mind (from Zen Texts, BDK ed, p 42):

Make effort! Make effort! Of the thousand or ten thousand people in this school, only three or five [have really understood Buddhism]. If you do not take this seriously then you will suffer for it eventually (lit., “there will be a day when you experience a calamity”). Therefore it is said, “Be diligent in taking care of this life, and how could you suffer misfortune in eons to come?”
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
mansurhirbi87
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Re: zen is hard or easy, for a lot or few ?

Post by mansurhirbi87 »

Thank you very much for your answers, brother Astos.

Two questions :
1 - What means : "The mind of the Patriarchs is in every blade of grass!" in you first quotation ?
2- and : "“Be diligent in taking care of this life, and how could you suffer misfortune in eons to come?”; be diligent would be a condition to not suffer in the eons to come ? Did i get correctly your second quotation ?

_/\_
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Astus
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Re: zen is hard or easy, for a lot or few ?

Post by Astus »

mansurhirbi87 wrote:1 - What means : "The mind of the Patriarchs is in every blade of grass!" in you first quotation ?
The truth is ubiquitous, all appearances are already such.
2- be diligent would be a condition to not suffer in the eons to come ? Did i get correctly your second quotation ?
Yes. If one is diligent now and gains insight, then the cause of future suffering is removed.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: zen is hard or easy, for a lot or few ?

Post by DGA »

mansurhirbi87 wrote:i guess i should be more precise : do you think is it the best way for everybody. it look likes to me that it's hard and for few people
Zen is the best way for some persons. It is hard for some, and easy for others. Everyone can learn something from it, though.

There is no one best way for everyone. There are as many doors to the Dharma as there are sentient beings. We are very fortunate in that respect.
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Re: zen is hard or easy, for a lot or few ?

Post by Wayfarer »

I think traditional Zen is very demanding. The accounts of Westerners who first went to Zen monasteries in the past are that the discipline and regimentation was very demanding, the slightest perceived errors in execution were subject to harsh punishment, and the living conditions were austere in the extreme. Robert Buswell's book, The Zen Monastic Experience, is one account. Another early account is The Empty Mirror: Experiences in a Japanese Zen Monastery, Janwillem van de Wetering. This article is by Harold Stewart, an Australian who lived in Japan for the last 30 years of his life, and practiced Shin Buddhism; he says that Shin is more suitable for most Westerners.
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Re: zen is hard or easy, for a lot or few ?

Post by Rakz »

Zen is for the extremely disciplined.
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Re: zen is hard or easy, for a lot or few ?

Post by Ayu »

Rakz wrote:Zen is for the extremely disciplined.
Some things become easier as soon as one develops dicipline.
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Re: zen is hard or easy, for a lot or few ?

Post by Rakz »

Ayu wrote:
Rakz wrote:Zen is for the extremely disciplined.
Some things become easier as soon as one develops dicipline.
Was referring to traditional macho zen, not the softer westernized version.
mansurhirbi87
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Re: zen is hard or easy, for a lot or few ?

Post by mansurhirbi87 »

What's the diference between "macho zen " and westenized zen ? The westerns who practiced and studied in Japan and got the authorization to teach have no value , or are not "machos" ?
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Re: zen is hard or easy, for a lot or few ?

Post by White Lotus »

There is No macho Zen. There is No soft Zen. There is No Zen. Only emptiness. The Igyo school of Zen was soft and a master would only have one or two students with whom he was very patient, gentle and grandmotherly. (to the best of my knowledge).
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
White Lotus
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Re: zen is hard or easy, for a lot or few ?

Post by White Lotus »

A lot of Zen involved shouts, hitting or crisis of one kind or another with the goal of bringing a student to fruition. hard or soft or a mixture of both would all seem to be effective with or without a good teacher. The true potential is in the student. We are all students. In emptiness there is nothing required at all. :)
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
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Re: zen is hard or easy, for a lot or few ?

Post by Meido »

Rakz wrote:Was referring to traditional macho zen, not the softer westernized version.
Categories which are themselves a westernized version.

Traditional Zen is just doing shugyo, according to the instructions received from one's teacher, and to whatever degree one is able or wishes: as a lay practitioner, monastic practice, solo/isolated practice, or some combination of those at different times in life. The severity, mood, or "house style" which one might experience in training differs according to where one is. One is free to choose what is appropriate for oneself.

In any case, everyone knows that real Zen masters are always macho:
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Re: zen is hard or easy, for a lot or few ?

Post by seeker242 »

My teacher's teacher used to say "It's hard if you make it hard, it's easy if you make it easy". Sounds about right. :smile:
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mansurhirbi87
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Re: zen is hard or easy, for a lot or few ?

Post by mansurhirbi87 »

Interesting this "macho" discourse. the majority of leaders and involved people in zen buddhism where i live are women :)
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