Re: Treeleaf Sangha
Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:18 pm
you said it, not me!shel wrote:To a [dysfunctional] fault.
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you said it, not me!shel wrote:To a [dysfunctional] fault.
Very interesting, Shel, However, that is not the message of that talk by Taigu at all. In fact, it is the complete opposite.shel wrote:Getty back to the topic, I saw an interesting couple of articles published at Sweepingzen.com this week which I believe touch on the core issue of the Treeleaf controversy. The core issue is apparently that online sangha cannot be a substitute for in-person sangha, and I believe the articles posted by Jundo and Taigu demonstrate why. It can't be a substitute because with online communication we tend show an artificial version of ourselves. Indeed, one of the articles is literally titled "Unmasking" ( http://sweepingzen.com/sit-a-long-with-taigu-unmasking/ ). In the video Taigu mentions how his response to recent events in his life caused a big stir in at Treeleaf. It would appear that he is not well known at Treeleaf. Only the online mask is known. Granted it's possible to present a mask in person, and indeed we probably all do to some degree, but by being around others in person we see infinitely more. We see reactions to the unexpected, everything, unfiltered. Online everything is measured and controlled, and any random elements are removed, so we show only what we want to show.
Any thoughts?
Hello Alan,AlanI wrote:Very interesting, Shel, However, that is not the message of that talk by Taigu at all. In fact, it is the complete opposite.shel wrote:Getty back to the topic, I saw an interesting couple of articles published at Sweepingzen.com this week which I believe touch on the core issue of the Treeleaf controversy. The core issue is apparently that online sangha cannot be a substitute for in-person sangha, and I believe the articles posted by Jundo and Taigu demonstrate why. It can't be a substitute because with online communication we tend show an artificial version of ourselves. Indeed, one of the articles is literally titled "Unmasking" ( http://sweepingzen.com/sit-a-long-with-taigu-unmasking/ ). In the video Taigu mentions how his response to recent events in his life caused a big stir in at Treeleaf. It would appear that he is not well known at Treeleaf. Only the online mask is known. Granted it's possible to present a mask in person, and indeed we probably all do to some degree, but by being around others in person we see infinitely more. We see reactions to the unexpected, everything, unfiltered. Online everything is measured and controlled, and any random elements are removed, so we show only what we want to show.
Any thoughts?
lived with some of the people with Katagiri Roshi for many years.
That's all very nice, Alan, and I'm glad for you. I clearly wasn't saying that the Treeleaf community is not warm or connected or helpful. Indeed I might be saying that that's all that they are, because that's all that they show through the controlled online medium. Life isn't always warm, connected or helpful. Hence the stir when the online group learned that life wasn't warm, connected or helpful to Taigu, in his real life.Treeleaf is my first online experience with a Buddhist community, and I have to say it is one of the warmest, most connected, helpful groups I have ever associated with. I am rather quiet, but when I do need some question, Taigu and Jundo and the others in the community have been there. Over the last couple of years I have found the practice there very real, and Taigu and Jundo very powerful and down to earth teachers.
You are suggesting that sensibility and honesty confuse me?Maybe that honesty and down to earth is what is confusing you, Shel.
I have a friend who attends Treeleaf and finds it very beneficial. He does not believe that an online sangha can be an equivalent of an in person sangha. But he does believe that an online sangha is better than no sangha at all. I would imagine that it would be quite difficult to argue that an online sangha is not better than no sangha at all.shel wrote:Getty back to the topic, I saw an interesting couple of articles published at Sweepingzen.com this week which I believe touch on the core issue of the Treeleaf controversy. The core issue is apparently that online sangha cannot be a substitute for in-person sangha
Shel, I am confused about what "big stir"? Taigu is talking about feeling stress on his job, and he talks about how we tend to idealize Buddhist Teachers as being perfect. He uses as an example Trungpa who felt fear and deep depression in his biography. This did not create any stir. Look for yourself at the very positive reaction from the Tree leaf members.shel wrote: I was talking about the big stir that was caused in the Treeleaf community when they learned more about Taigu's real life. Like I said, it's like no one really knows him there, and that's not a surprise being that they only know him through the filter of digital technology, where everything that's show is controlled and measured. Little, if anything, unexpected happens through that media channel.
"Outing" someone in this manner on an internet forum is very unfortunate and bad netiquette. Firstly, it is in no way proveable that Shel is the person you assume he/she is. Secondly, it is not very polite to share such a personal disclosure that came to you via a Private Message. The fact that the information was sent as a private message indicates the person who sent it counted on your discretion.You confuse me, Shel. Someone PM'd me to say that you are the fellow who <SNIP> I am just trying to figure out your very exaggerated reactions.
How difficult or easy it would be to argue of course depends on the organization. But we will not argue the issue because it's off-topic.seeker242 wrote:I have a friend who attends Treeleaf and finds it very beneficial. He does not believe that an online sangha can be an equivalent of an in person sangha. But he does believe that an online sangha is better than no sangha at all. I would imagine that it would be quite difficult to argue that an online sangha is not better than no sangha at all.shel wrote:Getty back to the topic, I saw an interesting couple of articles published at Sweepingzen.com this week which I believe touch on the core issue of the Treeleaf controversy. The core issue is apparently that online sangha cannot be a substitute for in-person sangha
At the beginning of the video he said it caused a stir at Treeleaf. Are you saying that is not true? Why would he lie about it?AlanI wrote:Shel, I am confused about what "big stir"? Taigu is talking about feeling stress on his job, and he talks about how we tend to idealize Buddhist Teachers as being perfect. He uses as an example Trungpa who felt fear and deep depression in his biography. This did not create any stir. Look for yourself at the very positive reaction from the Tree leaf members.shel wrote: I was talking about the big stir that was caused in the Treeleaf community when they learned more about Taigu's real life. Like I said, it's like no one really knows him there, and that's not a surprise being that they only know him through the filter of digital technology, where everything that's show is controlled and measured. Little, if anything, unexpected happens through that media channel.
I thought you attributed my reactions to being confused by honesty and sensibility. But anyway, this is exactly what I'm talking about. If anyone cares to look, notice that all posts from "praxis" were removed from the Treeleaf forum. Why were they deleted? My posts there were no different in nature than they on this forum, which might be characterized as being critical, and as Keith put it, "dogged and relentless."You confuse me, Shel. Someone PM'd me to say that you are the fellow who was asked to leave Treeleaf by a vote of the whole Sangha because of creating a problem, and maybe this is why you have an axe to grind against Taigu and Jundo? I am just trying to figure out your very exaggerated reactions.
http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthre ... ION-PRAXIS
That's an interesting angle, shel (particularly the bolded bits)shel wrote:I think this may be what Jikan was basically getting at with the recent topic about shopping for a tradition. Giving people what they want rather than what they need. Can anyone at Treeleaf live up to the hype that Omoi Otoshi wrote and "stop trying to fight what life throws at you and instead accept your circumstances and adapt to them, dance with them, effortlessly, fluidly.” I think that we can possibly appear that way online, through the filter of digital technology, showing only what we want to show.
Yes, obviously, the point I'm making is that with online communication life is controlled and measured so "all the time" may be filtered, and we show only what we want to show. Even when we stumble, as in the case of Taigu's breakdown, it is put on show to derive some much desired meaning out of it.Omoi Otoshi wrote:No, I believe we all stumble and fall, every day. I don't believe any of us are saints all the time.
Every moment is a "Buddha moment".Omoi Otoshi wrote:What I described in my previous post was a Buddha moment. In between those, there are many sentient being moments!
Yes, sorry if that wasn't clear in my post!gregkavarnos wrote:Every moment is a "Buddha moment".Omoi Otoshi wrote:What I described in my previous post was a Buddha moment. In between those, there are many sentient being moments!
Yes, it's a good point.shel wrote:Hello Omoi Otoshi,
Yes, obviously, the point I'm making is that with online communication life is controlled and measured so "all the time" may be filtered, and we show only what we want to show. Even when we stumble, as in the case of Taigu's breakdown, it is put on show to derive some much desired meaning out of it.Omoi Otoshi wrote:No, I believe we all stumble and fall, every day. I don't believe any of us are saints all the time.
Hmm, interesting point. Are you showing us your true nature Shel? A true teacher is one who shows that we all face struggles in life. No matter how long one has been practicing, one can still be affected by the day to day comings and goings of life.shel wrote:Hello Omoi Otoshi,
Yes, obviously, the point I'm making is that with online communication life is controlled and measured so "all the time" may be filtered, and we show only what we want to show. Even when we stumble, as in the case of Taigu's breakdown, it is put on show to derive some much desired meaning out of it.Omoi Otoshi wrote:No, I believe we all stumble and fall, every day. I don't believe any of us are saints all the time.