Zen smell, Zen stink and Zen pong

[Mu Mut]

ii. 'Think outside the box'. I wasn't aware there was any other way to think!? Got pointed out a while back that our problem is no matter what we do we find ourselves 'in the box'. How do you get out?

Trying to think outside the box is to be still defined by the box. This is one sneaky box we are dealing with.

IMO this is true zen......
Not robes or rituals of Zen Masters.

[Paul]

IMO this is true zen......
Not robes or rituals of Zen Masters.

Do you not think that maybe these zen masters that formulated and/or continued the traditions and rituals knew full well what they were doing?

A quote from Longchenpa is something that I think is relevant to this topic (which is actually a problem in all of Buddhist practice, not just zen): "To reject practice by saying 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced & something to be avoided."

[muni]

Not robes or rituals of Zen Masters.

Clinging to teacher or thinking to not need a teacher is to reject the finger pointing, or to hold onto the finger.
http://vimeo.com/4826619" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; All appearances/phenomena are like that, a wisdom ringing bell to awaken is not different or same.

[DGA]

ii. 'Think outside the box'. I wasn't aware there was any other way to think!? Got pointed out a while back that our problem is no matter what we do we find ourselves 'in the box'. How do you get out?

Trying to think outside the box is to be still defined by the box. This is one sneaky box we are dealing with.

IMO this is true zen......
Not robes or rituals of Zen Masters.

In taking this position, are you not putting yourself in the position of the Master of the Zen Masters you seem to find contemptible? You seem to be claiming that your understanding of Zen is superior to that of anyone who identifies with extant practice lineages. If this is the case, then I bow to you.

Is it the case?

[Johnny Dangerous]

. Asking people to"think outside the box" in response to valid criticism is silly.

Are zen koans an effort to get people to think outside the box?

. As to the rest, IMO the reason some westerners jump onto the part of Zen that is iconoclastic is that they have a deep seated panic reaction to ritual itself, because they come from a culture with a negative, protestant view of ritual, a

Me too, I have an aversion to useless ritual.
I always think of tribal cultures that have dance rituals and incantations when anything goes wrong in the belief that it will fix the problem......it's basically a superstitious belief system.


In Ireland we drink a lot if tea, just like the Japanese.
I boil the kettle, pop a tea bag in the cup and drink my tea.
In Japan you have to sit through a 3 hour tea ceremony!

How do those Japanese rituals help me drink a cup of tea?


So......

Getting back to the op:

The stink in Zen is the adherence to ritual: they have turned ritual into a superstitious dogma.

I don't think you actually have any idea what you are trying to criticize, and I suspect you have no actual experience with Zen, I think the "Zen" you are criticizing exists mainly in your imagination, and not in your experiences.

Can you please describe which rituals in Zen you believe are "superstitious dogma" specifically, your experience with them, and your argument for what makes them superstitious or dogmatic?

[Mu Mut]

I would like to make it perfectly clear that I was not critiquing the Zen masters, teachers and monks on this forum: they appear to be a genuine bunch of people and totally sincere in the advise they give.

But I was criticising the establishment, and proposing that it should be very closely scrutinised.

I will not raise the subject again.

And getting back to the op........

[Mu Mut]

.A quote from Longchenpa is something that I think is relevant to this topic (which is actually a problem in all of Buddhist practice, not just zen): "To reject practice by saying 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced & something to be avoided."

What of the Zen 'bigginers mind' or the freshness of the inexperienced mind; in contrast to the 'Experts mind'?

[Johnny Dangerous]

I would like to make it perfectly clear that I was not critiquing the Zen masters, teachers and monks on this forum: they appear to be a genuine bunch of people and totally sincere in the advise they give.

But I was criticising the establishment, and proposing that it should be very closely scrutinised.

I will not raise the subject again.

And getting back to the op........

It seems like you have neither the information nor personal experience to engage in that sort of criticism., if you are going to post criticism of a given doctrine, point of view, "the establishment" (whatever that's supposed to mean in this context) whatever..it should be backed up by something, and should be directed towards something less vague..otherwise why even bring it up?

But I was criticising the establishment, and proposing that it should be very closely scrutinised.

What establishment are you talking about?

[Mu Mut]

Not robes or rituals of Zen Masters.

Clinging to teacher or thinking to not need a teacher is to reject the finger pointing, or to hold onto the finger.
http://vimeo.com/4826619" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; All appearances/phenomena are like that, a wisdom ringing bell to awaken is not different or same.

This is a very interesting point.

Does it mean whatever you say or do, or think you know or don't, the BIG question is: 'what is going on inside my mind' not what I think I know or don't etc etc.......

[Mu Mut]

ii. 'Think outside the box'. I wasn't aware there was any other way to think!? Got pointed out a while back that our problem is no matter what we do we find ourselves 'in the box'. How do you get out?

Trying to think outside the box is to be still defined by the box. This is one sneaky box we are dealing with[/

In taking this position, are you not putting yourself in the position of the Master of the Zen Masters you seem to find contemptible? You seem to be claiming that your understanding of Zen is superior to that of anyone who identifies with extant practice lineages. If this is the case, then I bow to you.

Is it the case?

I'm just saying. ' what is your own personal experience of Zen' without reference to Masters or Teachers.

[Mu Mut]

. I don't think you actually have any idea what you are trying to criticize, and I suspect you have no actual experience with Zen, I think the "Zen" you are criticizing exists mainly in your imagination, and not in your experiences.

Can you please describe which rituals in Zen you believe are "superstitious dogma" specifically, your experience with them, and your argument for what makes them superstitious or dogmatic?

This is true, I have never been to a Zen dojo, or talked to a Zen master in real life.
..but then I've never been on the moon either.

I was brought up in the catholic tradition.
We had prayers and lots of strict rituals.
Priest wore robes and bowed and stuff.
Even the congregation had to approach the alter in a particular way, genuflecting etc

I've only even seen videos of Zen monasteries, and photos of my local Zen Dojo....

There seems to be similar stuff going on?

[muni]

Not robes or rituals of Zen Masters.

Clinging to teacher or thinking to not need a teacher is to reject the finger pointing, or to hold onto the finger.
http://vimeo.com/4826619" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; All appearances/phenomena are like that, a wisdom ringing bell to awaken is not different or same.

This is a very interesting point.

Does it mean whatever you say or do, or think you know or don't, the BIG question is: 'what is going on inside my mind' not what I think I know or don't etc etc.......

Yes.

[Paul]

.A quote from Longchenpa is something that I think is relevant to this topic (which is actually a problem in all of Buddhist practice, not just zen): "To reject practice by saying 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced & something to be avoided."

What of the Zen 'bigginers mind' or the freshness of the inexperienced mind; in contrast to the 'Experts mind'?

Beginner's mind is not to come in and tell people that they are doing everything wrong and that the beginner knows better. It's to keep an open mind and learn.

[Johnny Dangerous]

. I don't think you actually have any idea what you are trying to criticize, and I suspect you have no actual experience with Zen, I think the "Zen" you are criticizing exists mainly in your imagination, and not in your experiences.

Can you please describe which rituals in Zen you believe are "superstitious dogma" specifically, your experience with them, and your argument for what makes them superstitious or dogmatic?

This is true, I have never been to a Zen dojo, or talked to a Zen master in real life.
..but then I've never been on the moon either.

I was brought up in the catholic tradition.
We had prayers and lots of strict rituals.
Priest wore robes and bowed and stuff.
Even the congregation had to approach the alter in a particular way, genuflecting etc

I've only even seen videos of Zen monasteries, and photos of my local Zen Dojo....

There seems to be similar stuff going on?

Not even remotely. might be a good idea to learn a bit more about Buddhism, and Zen specifically before making that kind of assumption, especially on a board that says it's about discussion of Buddhism.

You just admitted fully that your perception of ritual in Zen comes solely from your aversion to Catholic ritual, i'm not even sure you understand Catholic ritual either, I only know that you dislike it. So basically, you came on the board, told people how silly ritual was..and it turns out, you don't even have a bit of personal experience, or even knowledge of the rituals in question.

How does that jive with your repeated insistence that we should rely on our personal experience? Does relying on personal experience simply mean giving into our biases without question like that?

[LastLegend]

Personally, I feel more comfortable with Chan Buddhism because it sounds less commidified. I am not saying anything about Zen practice in Japan because I know nothing about it.

[Mu Mut]

Not robes or rituals of Zen Masters.
Clinging to teacher or thinking to not need a teacher is to reject the finger pointing,

This is a very interesting point.

Does it mean whatever you say or do, or think you know or don't, the BIG question is: 'what is going on inside my mind' not what I think I know or don't etc etc.......

Yes.[/quote][/quote]

So....

Whatever we do, or don't makes no difference in the end.

Just one question remains: have you freed your mind?

[Mu Mut]

What of the Zen 'bigginers mind' or the freshness of the inexperienced mind; in contrast to the 'Experts mind'?

Beginner's mind is not to come in and tell people that they are doing everything wrong and that the beginner knows better. It's to keep an open mind and learn.[/quote]

But...

Does a someone who's discovered their true self have a beginners mind?

Maybe the natural mind is the opposite of the emotional mind?

[LastLegend]

How do you free your mind? Based on what understanding?

[Mu Mut]

Personally, I feel more comfortable with Chan Buddhism because it sounds less commidified. I am not saying anything about Zen practice in Japan because I know nothing about it.

I've seen a couple of iconic documentaries on Chinese Chan.

Just simple monks living up the side of a mountain, living the good life, free from regulation of the corrupt communist state.

[Paul]

But...

You really need to empty your cup.