Is Zen all about "yogic action"?
Is Zen all about "yogic action"?
While reading a text by Patrul Rinpoche, I came across this quote:
"A sutra says:
When no activity whatsoever is performed,
That is what is called ‘yogic action’."
http://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-mas ... w-mahayana" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
This definition of "yogic action" sounds like one of the main concepts of Zen (which I suppose isn't surprising because this is all about the Mahayana concept of the emptiness of self and the emptiness of external objects). My Soto Zen teacher once said that if one practices Zen seriously for a long time, one isn't really able to say "I practice Zen" because the sense of self is seen as an illusion.
What do you the rest of you think?
And do any of you know which sutra Patrul Rinpoche was quoting?
"A sutra says:
When no activity whatsoever is performed,
That is what is called ‘yogic action’."
http://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-mas ... w-mahayana" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
This definition of "yogic action" sounds like one of the main concepts of Zen (which I suppose isn't surprising because this is all about the Mahayana concept of the emptiness of self and the emptiness of external objects). My Soto Zen teacher once said that if one practices Zen seriously for a long time, one isn't really able to say "I practice Zen" because the sense of self is seen as an illusion.
What do you the rest of you think?
And do any of you know which sutra Patrul Rinpoche was quoting?
Re: Is Zen all about "yogic action"?
It would help to know what term is translated as "yogic action" in Patrul Rinpche's text. From there, it would be easier to make a sensible comparison (Tibetan Buddhist terms and Chinese ones can be compared to the Sanskrit terms they often but not always translate).
Of course context is everything...
Of course context is everything...
Re: Is Zen all about "yogic action"?
I've never heard the term yogic action. No activity sort of sounds like zazen meditation though. When all activity is ceased the mind becomes detached.
As for the I being seen as an illusion, It takes a bit more than that. Even once it's seen we have to work with the habit energy we've had so long. It doesn't vanish forever in one instant. So by continuing with practice you chip away at the habits that create the illusion.
As for the I being seen as an illusion, It takes a bit more than that. Even once it's seen we have to work with the habit energy we've had so long. It doesn't vanish forever in one instant. So by continuing with practice you chip away at the habits that create the illusion.
Thus shall ye think of all this fleeting world:
A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream;
A flash of lightning in a summer cloud,
A flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream.
Re: Is Zen all about "yogic action"?
Probably this:Jikan wrote:It would help to know what term is translated as "yogic action" in Patrul Rinpche's text.
http://rywiki.tsadra.org/index.php/brtul_zhugs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
In teachings I've come across it's about methods for enhancing ones realisation of the nature of mind.disciplined engagement - The usual translation “yogic discipline” for the Tibetan term brtul zhugs is highly unsatisfactory. It is also translated occasionally as “vanquishing conduct” or “courageous conduct”, “tantric deportment”, “uncontrived behaviour” etc., and refers to various kinds of unconventional behaviour which advanced tantric practitioners might engage in at certain points within their training in order to further their spiritual development and to train in awareness. The definition in the bod rgya tshig mdzod chen mo is as follows: “vanquishing one’s normal, ordinary behaviour, one enters into the area of uncommon behaviour” [tha mal rang ga ba’i spyod pa brtul nas thun min gyi spyod pa’i gnas la zhugs pa’o]. Another translation attempt could be “disciplined engagement”, i.e. disciplining yourself to not behave in conventional ways, and engaging in unconventional behaviour. Another definition, from the dung dkar tshig mdzod chen mo: “disciplining oneself and bringing to an end ones normal self-indulgent behaviour, one engages fully in special behaviour” [tha mal rang ga ba ci ‘dod du byed pa’i spyod pa brtul ba’am mjug sgril te thun mong ma yin pa'i spyod pa’i gnas la zhugs pa’o]. [TSD]
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell
Re: Is Zen all about "yogic action"?
Skillful functioning of the original nature is a phrase I've come across in Zen. This is the 'returning to the marketplace with open arms' - the last of the ox-herding pictures. Freely moving in all situations, unencumbered by the comings and goings, unswayed by the worldly winds.
But what does the mind detach from?Jesse wrote:I've never heard the term yogic action. No activity sort of sounds like zazen meditation though. When all activity is ceased the mind becomes detached.
As for the I being seen as an illusion, It takes a bit more than that. Even once it's seen we have to work with the habit energy we've had so long. It doesn't vanish forever in one instant. So by continuing with practice you chip away at the habits that create the illusion.
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Re: Is Zen all about "yogic action"?
Sounds very similar to Taoist Wei-wu-wei: Nondual action Which is definitely a zen thing. Zen is big on nonduality. That's why I think it's called the practice of no-practice, the mind of no-mind, etc, etc.
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
Re: Is Zen all about "yogic action"?
Mental activity and self grasping.Dan74 wrote:Skillful functioning of the original nature is a phrase I've come across in Zen. This is the 'returning to the marketplace with open arms' - the last of the ox-herding pictures. Freely moving in all situations, unencumbered by the comings and goings, unswayed by the worldly winds.
But what does the mind detach from?Jesse wrote:I've never heard the term yogic action. No activity sort of sounds like zazen meditation though. When all activity is ceased the mind becomes detached.
As for the I being seen as an illusion, It takes a bit more than that. Even once it's seen we have to work with the habit energy we've had so long. It doesn't vanish forever in one instant. So by continuing with practice you chip away at the habits that create the illusion.
Thus shall ye think of all this fleeting world:
A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream;
A flash of lightning in a summer cloud,
A flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream.
- LastLegend
- Posts: 5408
- Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
- Location: Northern Virginia
Re: Is Zen all about "yogic action"?
I will deny the definition self-grasping. If I deny knowing self-grasping, does that mean there is no self-grasping. Now I completely don't know self-grasping, does that mean there is no self-grasping? If there is self-grasping, does that mean self-grasping is automatic and mechanical?
I might be wrong, and I am messing with your mind. It's best to practice accumulating merits through giving.
I might be wrong, and I am messing with your mind. It's best to practice accumulating merits through giving.
It’s eye blinking.
Re: Is Zen all about "yogic action"?
"When no activity whatsoever is performed" - that is not what Zen is all about. From Patrul Rinpoche's text it is the "direct practice" rather than the gradual one that comes close to Zen. But even then, in Zen there is no difference between "in meditation" and "post-meditation". Recovering the nature of mind means not only freedom from appearances but the unhindered functioning of buddha-mind as well, that is the inseparable unity of the two truths. Here's an illustration:
One day while they were picking tea leaves, Guishan said to Yangshan, "All day today I've heard your voice but I haven't seen your form."
Yangshan then shook the tea tree.
Guishan said, "You attained its function, but you haven't realized its essence."
Yangshan said, "What does the master say?"
Guishan was silent.
Yangshan said, "The master has attained its essence but hasn't realized its function."
Guishan said, "I spare you thirty blows with the staff."
Yangshan said, "If I receive thirty blows of the master's staff, who then will receive thirty blows from me?"
Guishan said, "I spare you thirty blows."
(Zen master Xuanjue said, "I ask you, who made the error here?")
(Zen's Chinese Heritage, p 146)
One day while they were picking tea leaves, Guishan said to Yangshan, "All day today I've heard your voice but I haven't seen your form."
Yangshan then shook the tea tree.
Guishan said, "You attained its function, but you haven't realized its essence."
Yangshan said, "What does the master say?"
Guishan was silent.
Yangshan said, "The master has attained its essence but hasn't realized its function."
Guishan said, "I spare you thirty blows with the staff."
Yangshan said, "If I receive thirty blows of the master's staff, who then will receive thirty blows from me?"
Guishan said, "I spare you thirty blows."
(Zen master Xuanjue said, "I ask you, who made the error here?")
(Zen's Chinese Heritage, p 146)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Re: Is Zen all about "yogic action"?
“When no activity whatsoever is performed”.
I guess so, this means not blankness or silence only. I heard that silence can talk a lot.
There is a difference between clear spacious awareness its spontaneous action and activity as mental action or discursive thoughts. Or exhausting mind which analyses, prefers, divides, classifies, proves…This is an action by actor which lost its’ natural space and becomes a thing on itself. This is mental activity, not?
Zen-Paramitas?
Our dont-know mind can do anything. Zen Master Seung Sahn.
“We are each living in our own soap opera. We do not see things as they really are. We see only our interpretations. This is because our minds are always so busy...But when the mind calms down, it becomes clear. This mental clarity enables us to see things as they really are, instead of projecting our commentary on everything.” Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bg9jOYnEUA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bg9jOYnEUA