Is Zen all about "yogic action"?

[Luke]

While reading a text by Patrul Rinpoche, I came across this quote:
"A sutra says:
When no activity whatsoever is performed,
That is what is called ‘yogic action’."

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This definition of "yogic action" sounds like one of the main concepts of Zen (which I suppose isn't surprising because this is all about the Mahayana concept of the emptiness of self and the emptiness of external objects). My Soto Zen teacher once said that if one practices Zen seriously for a long time, one isn't really able to say "I practice Zen" because the sense of self is seen as an illusion.

What do you the rest of you think?

And do any of you know which sutra Patrul Rinpoche was quoting?

[DGA]

It would help to know what term is translated as "yogic action" in Patrul Rinpche's text. From there, it would be easier to make a sensible comparison (Tibetan Buddhist terms and Chinese ones can be compared to the Sanskrit terms they often but not always translate).

Of course context is everything...

[Jesse]

I've never heard the term yogic action. No activity sort of sounds like zazen meditation though. When all activity is ceased the mind becomes detached.

As for the I being seen as an illusion, It takes a bit more than that. Even once it's seen we have to work with the habit energy we've had so long. It doesn't vanish forever in one instant. So by continuing with practice you chip away at the habits that create the illusion.

[Paul]

It would help to know what term is translated as "yogic action" in Patrul Rinpche's text.

Probably this:

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disciplined engagement - The usual translation “yogic discipline” for the Tibetan term brtul zhugs is highly unsatisfactory. It is also translated occasionally as “vanquishing conduct” or “courageous conduct”, “tantric deportment”, “uncontrived behaviour” etc., and refers to various kinds of unconventional behaviour which advanced tantric practitioners might engage in at certain points within their training in order to further their spiritual development and to train in awareness. The definition in the bod rgya tshig mdzod chen mo is as follows: “vanquishing one’s normal, ordinary behaviour, one enters into the area of uncommon behaviour” [tha mal rang ga ba’i spyod pa brtul nas thun min gyi spyod pa’i gnas la zhugs pa’o]. Another translation attempt could be “disciplined engagement”, i.e. disciplining yourself to not behave in conventional ways, and engaging in unconventional behaviour. Another definition, from the dung dkar tshig mdzod chen mo: “disciplining oneself and bringing to an end ones normal self-indulgent behaviour, one engages fully in special behaviour” [tha mal rang ga ba ci ‘dod du byed pa’i spyod pa brtul ba’am mjug sgril te thun mong ma yin pa'i spyod pa’i gnas la zhugs pa’o]. [TSD]

In teachings I've come across it's about methods for enhancing ones realisation of the nature of mind.

[Dan74]

Skillful functioning of the original nature is a phrase I've come across in Zen. This is the 'returning to the marketplace with open arms' - the last of the ox-herding pictures. Freely moving in all situations, unencumbered by the comings and goings, unswayed by the worldly winds.

I've never heard the term yogic action. No activity sort of sounds like zazen meditation though. When all activity is ceased the mind becomes detached.

As for the I being seen as an illusion, It takes a bit more than that. Even once it's seen we have to work with the habit energy we've had so long. It doesn't vanish forever in one instant. So by continuing with practice you chip away at the habits that create the illusion.

But what does the mind detach from?

[LastLegend]

Detach from itself.

[seeker242]

Sounds very similar to Taoist Wei-wu-wei: Nondual action Which is definitely a zen thing. Zen is big on nonduality. That's why I think it's called the practice of no-practice, the mind of no-mind, etc, etc.

[Jesse]

Skillful functioning of the original nature is a phrase I've come across in Zen. This is the 'returning to the marketplace with open arms' - the last of the ox-herding pictures. Freely moving in all situations, unencumbered by the comings and goings, unswayed by the worldly winds.

I've never heard the term yogic action. No activity sort of sounds like zazen meditation though. When all activity is ceased the mind becomes detached.

As for the I being seen as an illusion, It takes a bit more than that. Even once it's seen we have to work with the habit energy we've had so long. It doesn't vanish forever in one instant. So by continuing with practice you chip away at the habits that create the illusion.

But what does the mind detach from?

Mental activity and self grasping.

[LastLegend]

I will deny the definition self-grasping. If I deny knowing self-grasping, does that mean there is no self-grasping. Now I completely don't know self-grasping, does that mean there is no self-grasping? If there is self-grasping, does that mean self-grasping is automatic and mechanical?

I might be wrong, and I am messing with your mind. It's best to practice accumulating merits through giving.

[Astus]

"When no activity whatsoever is performed" - that is not what Zen is all about. From Patrul Rinpoche's text it is the "direct practice" rather than the gradual one that comes close to Zen. But even then, in Zen there is no difference between "in meditation" and "post-meditation". Recovering the nature of mind means not only freedom from appearances but the unhindered functioning of buddha-mind as well, that is the inseparable unity of the two truths. Here's an illustration:

One day while they were picking tea leaves, Guishan said to Yangshan, "All day today I've heard your voice but I haven't seen your form."
Yangshan then shook the tea tree.
Guishan said, "You attained its function, but you haven't realized its essence."
Yangshan said, "What does the master say?"
Guishan was silent.
Yangshan said, "The master has attained its essence but hasn't realized its function."
Guishan said, "I spare you thirty blows with the staff."
Yangshan said, "If I receive thirty blows of the master's staff, who then will receive thirty blows from me?"
Guishan said, "I spare you thirty blows."
(Zen master Xuanjue said, "I ask you, who made the error here?")
(Zen's Chinese Heritage, p 146)

[muni]

“When no activity whatsoever is performed”.

I guess so, this means not blankness or silence only. I heard that silence can talk a lot.

There is a difference between clear spacious awareness its spontaneous action and activity as mental action or discursive thoughts. Or exhausting mind which analyses, prefers, divides, classifies, proves…This is an action by actor which lost its’ natural space and becomes a thing on itself. This is mental activity, not?

Zen-Paramitas?

Our dont-know mind can do anything. Zen Master Seung Sahn.