Mind and Motion

[LastLegend]

Bodhidharma Bloodstream Sermon. All the way the end of the passage.

But this mind isn’t somewhere outside the material body of four elements.Without this mind we can’t move. The body has no awareness. Like a plant or stone, the body has no nature. So how does it move? It’s the mind that moves. Language and behavior, perception and conception are all functions of the moving mind. All motion is the mind’s motion. Motion is its function. Apart from motion there’s no mind, and apart from the mind there’s no motion. But motion isn’t the mind. And the mind isn’t motion. Motion is basically mindless. And the mind is basically motionless. But motion doesn’t exist without the mind. And the mind doesn’t exist without motion. Theres no mind for motion to exist apart from, and

no motion for mind to exist apart from. Motion is the mind’s function, and its function is its motion. Even so, the mind neither moves nor functions, the essence of its functioning is emptiness and emptiness is essentially motionless. Motion is the same as the mind. And the mind is essentially motionless. Hence the Sutras tell us to move without moving, to travel without traveling, to see without seeing, to laugh without laughing, to hear without hearing, to know without knowing, to be happy, without being happy, to walk without walking, to stand without standing. And the sutras say, "Go beyond language. Go beyond thought." Basically, seeing, hearing, and knowing are completely empty. Your anger, Joy, or pain is like that of puppet. You search but you won’t find a thing.

According to the Sutras, evil deeds result in hardships and good deeds result in blessings. Angry people go to hell and happy people go to heaven. But once you know that the nature of anger and joy is empty and you let them go, you free yourself from karma. If you don’t see your nature, quoting sutras is no help, I could go on, but this brief sermon will have to do.

How do you understand? Please discuss, explain!

[LastLegend]

Link to the source
http://www.abuddhistlibrary.com/Buddhis ... DHARMA.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Astus]

Experience is motion and awareness. Motion means that there is change all the time, things come and go. Awareness means that there is consciousness present in experience. Whenever there is awareness, there is awareness of something, and that something changes.

There is no awareness found outside experience, therefore one should not strive for a blank state where nothing happens. Awareness is not the same as what is experienced, so one should not identify anything as one's true being. Because whatever is experienced always changes, there is nothing that could be held onto, nothing to serve as an abode.

Provisionally it can be said that there is a subjective awareness and the various objects occurring. Such a separation can help initially to put a distance between mind and phenomena, and cultivate detachment and mindfulness. But it's better to see right now that all problems arise from not recognising that awareness and motion exist inseparably in experience every moment. Thus there is nobody (mind) to obtain anything (object).

[LastLegend]

Experience is motion and awareness. Motion means that there is change all the time, things come and go. Awareness means that there is consciousness present in experience. Whenever there is awareness, there is awareness of something, and that something changes.

There is no awareness found outside experience, therefore one should not strive for a blank state where nothing happens. Awareness is not the same as what is experienced, so one should not identify anything as one's true being. Because whatever is experienced always changes, there is nothing that could be held onto, nothing to serve as an abode.

Provisionally it can be said that there is a subjective awareness and the various objects occurring. Such a separation can help initially to put a distance between mind and phenomena, and cultivate detachment and mindfulness. But it's better to see right now that all problems arise from not recognising that awareness and motion exist inseparably in experience every moment. Thus there is nobody (mind) to obtain anything (object).

I pretty much I agree with what you said there, but it sounds like like mindfulness of thought. The real disagreement here is using effort to be aware/mindful of thoughts/motion. By using effort, I mean we intentionally contrive the thought of mindfulness or awareness of thoughts. However, I also don't like the idea of maintaining a direct awareness with effort either. I like the idea of leaving the mind as it is in a relaxed ordinary state without trying to contrive thoughts or create motion in it. I notice when the mind tries to create motion, it 'goes' into the state of being wavered by thoughts-delusion like dreaming. When it does that, the the body, face, and especially the brain tries to tense up and even contracts itself. When that happens, just pull myself out of it.

[Astus]

I pretty much I agree with what you said there, but it sounds like like mindfulness of thought. The real disagreement here is using effort to be aware/mindful of thoughts/motion.

If one thinks of something one necessarily knows about that. However, there are different levels of awareness of thoughts, as most of the time they are forgotten the next moment and we end up not understanding the source of the resulting emotions and actions. Thoughts themselves are mostly governed by beliefs and assumptions, and the most fundamental view of them all is that thoughts have essence. The insight required then is to see that thoughts are insubstantial. And even if one can gain that understanding in a single moment, it doesn't mean it cannot be forgotten in the next moment. So, effort may be required both before and after. Before one strives to see the nature of mind. After, one works on reminding oneself of the original realisation.

"Leaving the mind as it is in a relaxed ordinary state without trying to contrive thoughts or create motion in it", isn't that a choice, an effort?

[LastLegend]

If one thinks of something one necessarily knows about that. However, there are different levels of awareness of thoughts, as most of the time they are forgotten the next moment and we end up not understanding the source of the resulting emotions and actions. Thoughts themselves are mostly governed by beliefs and assumptions, and the most fundamental view of them all is that thoughts have essence. The insight required then is to see that thoughts are insubstantial. And even if one can gain that understanding in a single moment, it doesn't mean it cannot be forgotten in the next moment. So, effort may be required both before and after. Before one strives to see the nature of mind. After, one works on reminding oneself of the original realisation.

I don't think there is anything wrong with mindfulness of object, just that there is no need to be aware of thoughts all the time, or try to know something by contriving or thinking.

"Leaving the mind as it is in a relaxed ordinary state without trying to contrive thoughts or create motion in it", isn't that a choice, an effort?

It is a choice but not effort because I define effort as using energy to create emotion. In order to do that, we have to understand how we think, the mechanics at the moment when become lost in delusion (dream-like state), if we are not in the state of dream-like delusion, then we are in a wakeful state.

[White Lotus]

the Sutras tell us to move without moving, to travel without traveling, to see without seeing, to laugh without laughing, to hear without hearing, to know without knowing, to be happy, without being happy, to walk without walking, to stand without standing.

for some years now i have had no sensation of movement when walking. as though i were standing still... moving without moving. when one no longer has consciousness and the five senses are all dead then one sees without seeing. when one no longer has self then one laughs without laughing. when one no longer has any form of mind, yet there are still thoughts then one knows without knowing. since all is empty there is no one to be happy and yet there is the appearance of happiness.

And the sutras say, "Go beyond language. Go beyond thought." Basically, seeing, hearing, and knowing are completely empty

in a sense, as soon as we talk about emptiness we have missed it. in another sense whatever we do or say, all is empty. if we name emptiness that misses it, or if we name emptiness thats it! Hui Chung the National teacher of china and emperors priest said: ''no name whatsoever for it'' and yet any name will do. emptiness can be expressed in language, however to the uninitiated it will sound either confused or like absolute nonsense. language is empty.

when he tells us to go beyond thought and language he implies that we should have direct experience of emptiness in our daily lives. this is only possible if every thing that one is or has been is utterly broken up. the floor smashed up, the door ripped out, the roof beams chopped up, the windows broken. only when your house is utterly forsaken and destroyed will you see emptiness without reference to anything else. renunciation and Yama, two great dharma enablers. if you incur a debt with Yama be sure to ask him to absolve you of all debt and in his generosity he will. two other great enablers: God and Buddhas.

seeing hearing and knowing simply are not when you are not. yet in a sense you still are. dont loose your freedom in relation to emptiness.

thats all for today. thanks last legend an interesting quote.

best wishes, Tom.