Zen - The Essence of Buddhism

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LastLegend
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Re: Zen - The Essence of Buddhism

Post by LastLegend »

Bodhidharma
‘The most essential method, which includes all other methods, is beholding the mind.

But how can one method include all others?

The mind is the root from which all things grow if you can understand the mind, everything else is included. It’s like the root of a tree. All a tree’s fruit and flowers, branches and leaves depend on its root. If you nourish its root, a tree multiplies. If you cut its root, it dies. Those who understand the mind reach enlightenment with minimal effort. Those who don’t understand the mind practice in vain. Everything good and bad comes from your own mind. To find something beyond the mind is impossible.

But how can beholding the mind be called understanding?

The Sutra of Ten Stages says, "in the body of mortals is the indestructible buddha-nature. Like the sun, its light fills endless space, But once veiled by the dark clouds of the five shades, it’s like a light ‘inside a ‘at, hidden from view." And the Nirvana Sutra says, "All mortals have the buddha-nature. But it’s covered by darkness from which they can’t escape. Our buddha-nature is awareness: to be aware and to make others aware. To realize awareness is liberation," Everything good has awareness for its root. And from this root of awareness grow the tree of all virtues and the fruit of nirvana. Beholding the mind like this is understanding.
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Re: Zen - The Essence of Buddhism

Post by Saoshun »

many people understand this beholding mind as beholding the thoughts which is not proper way to realize this instructions.
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Re: Zen - The Essence of Buddhism

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Meido wrote:Again, the way koan texts and sutras are actually used in Zen differs from one another.
What difference do you mean? There are a couple of sutra passages in koan collections, so it's not that a koan is necessarily an encounter dialogue.
Meido wrote:Sudden enlightenment rhetoric aside, all the so-called highest/most swift traditions require a great deal of practice to actualize promised results.
And that's the problem. It negates the whole point of a sudden path, a supreme vehicle. It goes contrary to the teachings of Bodhidharma, Huineng, Mazu and Linji. How do you reconcile it?
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Zen - The Essence of Buddhism

Post by Saoshun »

Sudden enlightenment needs only proper pointing out and proper following pointing out. If you understand that mind is actually empty and got absorbed into that you will get enlightenment to your original face when there is cessation of suffering and birth and death, literally.
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Re: Zen - The Essence of Buddhism

Post by 明安 Myoan »

Saoshun wrote:many people understand this beholding mind as beholding the thoughts which is not proper way to realize this instructions.
How do you understand "beholding" in this case?
I feel like when I "behold" thoughts and feelings, it's synonymous with becoming absorbed into daydream, becoming like a puppet of habituated responses.
When thoughts are like the sensations of the body, noticed but left alone, then they are unimportant, like ashes or driftwood floating by.
However, I have never felt I could penetrate the instruction to "behold the mind".
What is the experience of beholding anything other than an object of consciousness at one of the sense gates? I don't think I know.
If I do know, then I don't recognize that I know. :toilet:
I'm sure a teacher would help.
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Re: Zen - The Essence of Buddhism

Post by Meido »

Astus wrote:What difference do you mean? There are a couple of sutra passages in koan collections, so it's not that a koan is necessarily an encounter dialogue.
The differences between koan kufu and sutra study, which are exceedingly clear to people doing both.

The fact that a few sutra passages are taken up as koan outside the standard type of sutra study would, I think, confirm that such differences exist.
Astus wrote:And that's the problem. It negates the whole point of a sudden path, a supreme vehicle. It goes contrary to the teachings of Bodhidharma, Huineng, Mazu and Linji. How do you reconcile it?
It may be contrary to one interpretation of those teachings, but not all. As mentioned elsewhere, such debates are not really my interest these days.

In any case, not being particularly bright I personally reconcile things for myself through the mainstream path which we see in Chan, Zen, and Son today: seeing one's nature as the entrance and then - if such proves to be not total and sufficient, as is almost always the case - continued cultivation based upon that recognition in order to dissolve remaining traces/habit-energy (essentially, endlessly repeated recognition in unity with samadhi, until it is fully clarified and seamlessly embodied 24/7).

Certainly, though, I think it fine to re-examine and challenge the mainstream. I wonder, actually, if you've read Jia's or Poceski's works on the Hongzhou school (I've not, but the discussion brought them to mind).

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Re: Zen - The Essence of Buddhism

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Monlam Tharchin wrote:How do you understand "beholding" in this case?
Beholding the mind (觀心) is awareness of one's thoughts and emotions, thus seeing that they are empty.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Zen - The Essence of Buddhism

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Meido wrote:I personally reconcile things for myself through the mainstream path which we see in Chan, Zen, and Son today: seeing one's nature as the entrance and then - if such proves to be not total and sufficient, as is almost always the case - continued cultivation based upon that recognition in order to dissolve remaining traces/habit-energy (essentially, endlessly repeated recognition in unity with samadhi, until it is fully clarified and seamlessly embodied 24/7).
That is exactly how Guifeng Zongmi taught it: sudden enlightenment, gradual cultivation. However, he is not recognised as anyone important by most, and he is outside of the later patriarchal lineages. He had two influential followers: Yongming Yanshou, author of the Zongjinglu (a great collection of Chan teachings, only the first fasicle is translated yet), and Bojo Jinul. Of them, Yongming is mostly forgotten as a Chan teacher, but Jinul remains one of the most important Korean teacher.

It might interest you that Zongmi argued against the Hongzhou school that he considered too subitist. As we know now, the Hongzhou approach had become the orthodox eventually by the Song era.
Meido wrote:Certainly, though, I think it fine to re-examine and challenge the mainstream. I wonder, actually, if you've read Jia's or Poceski's works on the Hongzhou school (I've not, but the discussion brought them to mind).
Yes, I have read both of them. Jia's book also contains a fine translation of Mazu's teachings based on early sources.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Zen - The Essence of Buddhism

Post by Meido »

Astus wrote:That is exactly how Guifeng Zongmi taught it: sudden enlightenment, gradual cultivation. However, he is not recognised as anyone important by most, and he is outside of the later patriarchal lineages. He had two influential followers: Yongming Yanshou, author of the Zongjinglu (a great collection of Chan teachings, only the first fasicle is translated yet), and Bojo Jinul. Of them, Yongming is mostly forgotten as a Chan teacher, but Jinul remains one of the most important Korean teacher.
Yes, I'm aware of Zongmi's critique. The sudden awakening-gradual cultivation approach has been the mainstream Rinzai path from the earliest arrival of Rinzai lines in Japan, including the line brought over by Nanpo Shomyo which became the foundation of the surviving Otokan lineage. Naturally Zongmi's writings were known in Japan in the Kamakura period, but I have not heard there was any real Japanese Zen debate centered on this issue.

I'm not so clear how things developed in later China into the Ming. In the writings of modern Chan teachers we do find the same understanding, though, for example this from Sheng-yen:
After seeing your self-nature, you need to deepen your experience even further and bring it into maturation. You should have enlightenment experiences again and again and support them with continuous practice. Even though Ch'an says that at the time of enlightenment, your outlook is the same as of the Buddha, you are not yet a full Buddha.
Interesting topic to be sure.

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Re: Zen - The Essence of Buddhism

Post by LastLegend »

Monlam Tharchin wrote:
Saoshun wrote:many people understand this beholding mind as beholding the thoughts which is not proper way to realize this instructions.
How do you understand "beholding" in this case?
I feel like when I "behold" thoughts and feelings, it's synonymous with becoming absorbed into daydream, becoming like a puppet of habituated responses.
When thoughts are like the sensations of the body, noticed but left alone, then they are unimportant, like ashes or driftwood floating by.
However, I have never felt I could penetrate the instruction to "behold the mind".
What is the experience of beholding anything other than an object of consciousness at one of the sense gates? I don't think I know.
If I do know, then I don't recognize that I know. :toilet:
I'm sure a teacher would help.
Just my understanding only. Beholding the mind is beholding awareness. Awareness is aware and you can't be more aware than you already are aware. What is aware you may ask? Aware, in Lankavatara, is like a mirror instantaneously and indiscrimately reflecting in it all images and forms. But aware is not the actual mirror, that is why it is like a mirror reflecting all mental and physical activities. This aware is not a conceptual understanding to be aware and become fixated on the object. For example, what makes you wave your hand? You have to knowwhat wave your hand is, the concept of wave your hand. But the concept itself does not know. You know and that knowing is like a mirror.
It’s eye blinking.
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Re: Zen - The Essence of Buddhism

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Meido wrote:The sudden awakening-gradual cultivation approach has been the mainstream Rinzai path from the earliest arrival of Rinzai lines in Japan, including the line brought over by Nanpo Shomyo which became the foundation of the surviving Otokan lineage. Naturally Zongmi's writings were known in Japan in the Kamakura period, but I have not heard there was any real Japanese Zen debate centered on this issue.
I'm not so clear how things developed in later China into the Ming. In the writings of modern Chan teachers we do find the same understanding
While the sudden-gradual set up confirms to how things seem to happen for practitioners, at the same time it is equivalent to admitting a defeat, since it means that Zen cannot meet its own ideals emphasised primarily in the Platform Sutra. Apparently many have forgotten how early teachers argued why Zen is not just about a sudden glimpse but instant buddhahood - that's what "mind is buddha" actually stands for. It is not just some general statement of buddha-nature hidden somewhere, that doctrine of tathagatagarbha is common to all schools. It is "this very mind is buddha", that practically means seeing that experiences (phenomena) are ungraspable and inconceivable just as they are. And that's how Zen can not only take part in the essence of the Dharma but point directly and transmit only that essence.

Mazu explains what "mind is buddha" means very clearly (all quotes from here):

"The self-nature is originally complete. If one only does not get hindered by either good or evil things, then that is a person who cultivates the Way. Grasping good and rejecting evil, contemplating sunyata and entering Samadhi-all of these belong to activity. If one seeks outside, one goes away from it. Just put an end to all mental conceptions in the three realms. If there is not a single thought, then one eliminates the root of birth and death and obtains the unexcelled treasury of the Dharma king. Since limitless kalpas, all worldly false thinking, such as flattery, dishonesty, self-esteem, and arrogance have formed one body. That is why the sutra says, ‘It is only through the grouping of many dharmas that this body is formed. When it arises, it is only dharmas arising; when it ceases, it is only dharmas ceasing. When the dharmas arise, they do not say I arise; when they cease, they do not say, I cease.’“The previous thought, the following thought, and the present thought, each thought does not wait for the others; each thought is calm and extinct. This is called Ocean Seal Samadhi."

And an interesting "lost fragment" from Mazu found in the Zongjinglu:

"Why does [the Lankavatāra sūtra say] “Buddha taught that mind is the implicit truth?” As for “Buddha taught that mind is the implicit truth,” mind is Buddha. Because the words currently [attributed to the Buddha] are mind-words (i.e., designations for mind; xinyu), when it says, “Buddha taught that mind is the implicit truth, and ‘gatelessness’ is the dharma-gate,” [it means that] they understood the emptiness of the inherent nature [of things] (benxing), on top of which there is not a single dharma. Nature itself is the gateway. But because nature has no form and also lacks a gateway to access it, [the sūtra] says “‘gatelessness’ is the dharma-gate.” Why is it also known as the “gate of emptiness (kongmen),” and as the “gate of physical forms” (semen)? Emptiness refers to the emptiness of the dharma-nature; physical forms refer to the physical forms of the dharma-nature. Because the dharma-nature has no shape or form, it is referred to as “empty.” Because the dharma-nature is known and seen in everything without limit, it is referred to as “physical forms.”"
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Zen - The Essence of Buddhism

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Astus wrote:
While the sudden-gradual set up confirms to how things seem to happen for practitioners, at the same time it is equivalent to admitting a defeat, since it means that Zen cannot meet its own ideals emphasised primarily in the Platform Sutra.
I don't know. That immediately brings to mind this section of the sutra.
"The Dharma is originally of one school. It is people who think of North and South. The Dharma is of one kind, but people understand it slowly or quickly. Dharma is not sudden or gradual. Rather it is people who are sharp or dull. Hence the terms sudden and gradual."
It seems to me that it's not admitting defeat of the sutra, but simply confirming that it varies for different people. Although, if one can say sudden is impossible for anyone and everyone, then perhaps you could say it's admitting defeat. However, if one takes the view that very few people are "sharp", then maybe not. One could say that zen can meet the ideals of the sudden, but only with people who are sharp, which are few and far between. -
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
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Re: Zen - The Essence of Buddhism

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seeker242 wrote:It seems to me that it's not admitting defeat of the sutra, but simply confirming that it varies for different people. Although, if one can say sudden is impossible for anyone and everyone, then perhaps you could say it's admitting defeat. However, if one takes the view that very few people are "sharp", then maybe not. One could say that zen can meet the ideals of the sudden, but only with people who are sharp, which are few and far between. -
Yes, people are different, thus there are different teachings. One of the popular description of that is from Zongmi's "Inquiry into the Origin of Humanity" where he talks about the "five types of zen".

Platform Sutra, ch 2:
"This teaching is the Supreme Vehicle: it is preached for those of great wisdom, it is preached for those of superior capacities. Those of small capacities and small wisdom who hear it will generate doubt."
further explanation in ch 7: "To penetrate all the myriad dharmas and to be equipped with all the myriad dharmas, without any defilement at all; to transcend the characteristics of the various dharmas, without anything that is attained: this is called the Supreme Vehicle."

Huangbo explains the relevance of the difference between capacity:
"Some students attain the state of liberated Mind quickly, some slowly. After listening to a Dharma talk, some reach "no mind" directly. In contrast, some must first pass gradually through the ten grades of Bodhisattva faith, the Dasabhumi of Bodhisattva development, and the ten stages before attaining the Perfectly Awakened Mind. Whether one takes a long or a short time, however, once attained, "no mind" can never be lost."
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Zen - The Essence of Buddhism

Post by Meido »

Just to add that honestly I don't think it much of a defeat to say that if one doesn't complete the path in an instant, one may do so within this life or a handful of lives. A defeat to me would rather be to think that the masters quoted had means only for those rare individuals with the most deep, sharp roots...and that everyone else has to complete the common path of 3 eons.

Huangbo mentions that some are of the former type, some of the later - the two ends of the spectrum - but some (most) are on the spectrum in between those two extremes. He describes such in the the quote I posted in the original thread:

If you would spend all your time - walking, standing, sitting or lying down - learning to halt the concept forming activities of your own mind, you could be sure of ultimately attaining the goal. Since your strength is insufficient, you might not be able to transcend samsara by a single leap; but, after five or ten years, you would surely have made a good beginning and be able to make further progress spontaneously.

Again we have Huineng himself as an example of this sort of person, since his initial awakening - though spontaneous and significant - was not itself sufficient. As we know, even after his profound awakening under the 5th Patriarch he was directed not to teach immediately but instead went into seclusion for 15 years, hiding his status as Hongren's successor. However one interprets this, we must acknowledge that Huineng's story has in fact come to be idealized as the model of the path: initial awakening, completion of formal study/transmission from one's teacher, and finally a period of continuing maturation (the stage of forming the "holy embryo"). Fast forward to Daito and Kanzan, and we see the same stages played out.

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Re: Zen - The Essence of Buddhism

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Meido wrote:Just to add that honestly I don't think it much of a defeat to say that if one doesn't complete the path in an instant, one may do so within this life or a handful of lives.
I don't see it as a matter of personal competency or ability, but rather as how the path and its goal are understood. The sole realisation required is to personally confirm that dharmas are unattainable. From that it is obvious that there is nothing to gain or lose, take or drop, grasp or relinquish. The main obstacle is that the instruction should be in a language that the listener understands. That's where the importance of a proper teacher comes in. As Zongmi writes, the difference between Chan and the sutras is that Chan uses a simple and direct language appropriate for Chinese people. However, reading even Zongmi - who does not use later Song era Chan lingo known from koans - takes some level of specialised knowledge to make sense of.

For instance, the zazen instruction given in Soto can be very simple and direct: "When various thoughts arise in your mind, do not become caught up by them or struggle with them; neither pursue nor try to escape from them. Just leave thoughts alone, allowing them to come up and go away freely." or even shorter: "you let go of whatever thoughts come up, and you also don’t sleep." That is already no-thought, abiding nowhere, manifesting the buddha-mind of empty awareness. How could it not be called practice-enlightenment? Alas, many who attempt zazen get bogged down in maintaining a physical posture they assume to be the correct one.

And something similar could be said about kannazen (note: this is just my pet idea, so you can openly criticise it as foolish, if you think so). That is, maintaining the great doubt is already not abiding in any view or interpretation, but actively letting go while at the same time being aware. Although there are normally stages described as taking up the question, generating doubt and then shattering the great doubt, but from another perspective, taking up the question immediately brings doubt with it (or it's not a question but a statement) and that doubt is without the question (or we're just using it as some mantra), it is also without an answer (otherwise there is no more doubt), so one is basically forced into independence (although the traditional examples are a rat trap and a stuck ball), and that way maintaining doubt is not getting lost in names and concepts (not clinging to names and concepts is freedom).
Meido wrote:A defeat to me would rather be to think that the masters quoted had means only for those rare individuals with the most deep, sharp roots...and that everyone else has to complete the common path of 3 eons.
On the one hand, there is the view that Chan gives a direct access only to the first of the 52 stages, or the first of the 10 stages. There is also the view that whoever gains sudden enlightenment (buddhahood) in this life must have been on the bodhisattva path for a long time already. On the other hand, it shouldn't be a problem to follow the common Mahayana path. In fact, I'm in favour of letting people know more about the traditional gradual practices.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Zen - The Essence of Buddhism

Post by Saoshun »

Beholding the mind is not beholding the awareness, you are just beholding empty skandha and you can do that by milions years, no answer here was right.

Beholding the mind is actually leaving things as they are without accepting or rejecting anything, then the MIND appears, beholding the mind is actually THAT beyond awareness, when there is union with emptiness and bliss then you beholding the mind, otherwise you just thinking in terms of beholding the mind and conceptualizing about it. Beholding mind means realization in one moment, what you are saying that you TRYING to behold the mind and thinking that it is, it's difference like day and night. Beholding is the same as enlightenment.

"After seeing your self-nature, you need to deepen your experience even further and bring it into maturation. You should have enlightenment experiences again and again and support them with continuous practice. Even though Ch'an says that at the time of enlightenment, your outlook is the same as of the Buddha, you are not yet a full Buddha."

That's kind of true but not really, still conceptual and without clarity. After seeing your self nature, you are enlightenment but thru this experience in maturation comes skandhas, vasanas and all that, not the state which is permanent and always the same but things which manifest in that experience. So you do not have enlightenment experiences anymore, as yo are beyond experience or non experiences and experiencer and anything really, what happens it's just pure reality beyond conceptions and tathagatha body. This quote is not about genuine enlightenment but rather just insight into mind which of course it's good to deepen them because they will bring total realization.
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Re: Zen - The Essence of Buddhism

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Saoshun wrote:Beholding the mind is not beholding the awareness, you are just beholding empty skandha and you can do that by milions years, no answer here was right.

Beholding the mind is actually leaving things as they are without accepting or rejecting anything, then the MIND appears, beholding the mind is actually THAT beyond awareness, when there is union with emptiness and bliss then you beholding the mind, otherwise you just thinking in terms of beholding the mind and conceptualizing about it. Beholding mind means realization in one moment, what you are saying that you TRYING to behold the mind and thinking that it is, it's difference like day and night. Beholding is the same as enlightenment.
How do you leaving things as they are without be being aware? As said in Lankavatara Sutra, it is like a mirror reflecting, how can that be trying?

When you talk about beyond awareness and union with bliss, that's beyond what we currently experience.

You said realization in one moment and beholding the mind is the same as enlightenment. That seems like enlightenment is final. So according to you, Bodhidharma's "beholding the mind" means "hey just be enlightenment."
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Re: Zen - The Essence of Buddhism

Post by Saoshun »

How do you leaving things as they are without be being aware? As said in Lankavatara Sutra, it is like a mirror reflecting, how can that be trying?
Being aware or not aware does not matter, it's how things are, you can consciously approach that to the extent of being beyond awareness. Awareness is still empty skandha which must be transcended if awareness would be that everybody would be enlightenment without even realization this as some different state then it is in regular waking or dream state. Awarness is just aware and that it's function as the mind is to think, the MIND of the buddha is beyond awareness and ordinary mind, why they say ordinary mind is the buddha? because into state of realization of genuine enlightenment the mind and awareness are staying and their position as they stay but the MIND found which awareness and all other things are manifested shines forth. This is what Lankavatara sutra means by mirror, you just understand it thru your ignorance. Mirror is this but not awareness, it would be awarness you would not even difference between mind body, enlightenment and non enlightenment.

"When you talk about beyond awareness and union with bliss, that's beyond what we currently experience." - you are currently experience that in terms of idea, your experience idea that this we currently experience is this, that why is hard realize anything when people are full of intellectual ideas and gathered trash even buddha trash, still trash.


Exactly this is what it is, just be enlightenment in split second really if you cease all that idea making out of everything you touch, then the true mind beyond awareness and conception will appear.
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Re: Zen - The Essence of Buddhism

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What if I tell you enlightenment is just an idea and you are making all this up in your mind. Things such as beyond awareness and concept are your own making.
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Re: Zen - The Essence of Buddhism

Post by Saoshun »

LastLegend wrote:What if I tell you enlightenment is just an idea and you are making all this up in your mind. Things such as beyond awareness and concept are your own making.
Telling me enlightenment is an idea is an idea because it not point to the essential nature which if comes to experience realm it happens to be enlightenment. You cannot make anything in your mind really because nothing in your mind is existent so with the mind. Things beyond awareness are not concept, you are attached to that idea of awareness as enlightenment etc. that;s only intellectual bubble. Awareness is contained in the mind that why you cannot penetrate and just repeat all things without proper realization taking things which you read and understand as granted or some kind of realization. Unless you are in endless bliss of nirvana, there is no realization, look at you current experience, if it's neutral, etc peaceful, or changing into anything and transforming it's not realization.
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