Is Zen Mindfulness?

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Astus
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Re: Is Zen Mindfulness?

Post by Astus »

Bakmoon wrote:When one practices Zen meditation in this way, when objects arise to the mind, what does it mean that they are left alone? In mindfulness practice, this would mean that the object is simply observed but not altered or pushed away or drawn in. It is passive in the sense that the meditator doesn't try to change or push away the object, but at the same time, one is actively watching and being aware of the object. Is this the same in Zen?
To leave things as they are means not meddling, not manipulating. You don't even observe things, as that would be an attempt to make something. So, for instance, when you sit at home, you hear people talking from outside. There is no need to actively turn to it, listen to it, as you already hear them. When you turn to it, that is already adding something, grasping at an object. While if you feel disturbed by the noises - the feeling itself coming from grasping the noise - and you try to shut them out, that is rejecting.

There is also a way to learn leaving things alone through using an object to hold on to, and that is usually the process of breathing. When you concentrate on your breathing, although you can still see, hear, feel and think, you don't do anything with them. Here it is possible to avoid manipulating because one's attention is fixed on an object. But that's only a temporary method with limited use. It should be understood that no matter what you do, no matter how much you struggle, experiences still just come and go, they are without anything to keep or improve. So, even leaving things as they are is not something that needs practising or holding on to, simply because things are already as they are.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Is Zen Mindfulness?

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"What are you seeking?" asked Linjii. In concept, what can you realize? Concept is used to point at your mind. Diamond Sutra said, "Even Buddhadharma is be abandoned let alone non-Buddhadharma." Only raft, vehicle pointing at one's own mind. 49 years of Dharma, no actual word was spoken. Once you recognize your mind, forget all that you have learned or you will continue to be deluded by words of Patriarch and Buddha in seeking. Even though you think you can do it on your own, don't neglect to ask Buddha and Bodhisattva for support to realize quickly. Asking does not add more since nothing is added or deducted. Dharma mind is as it is. Even saying mind is saying too much already. True mind dharma is non reliance-not even on a teaching a thought, and because of non reliance you can do things without getting caught up in the bipolar disease.

I might be wrong. Hope you don't get lost.
:namaste:
It’s eye blinking.
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jundo cohen
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Re: Is Zen Mindfulness?

Post by jundo cohen »

Hi,

There are so many wonderful ways in which Zazen is taught. I would just mention this aspect of "Just Sitting" Shikantaza which I emphasize in our approach. It is a kind of "choiceless awareness", and "goalless" sitting, yet there is a bit more to the madness.

Our small self is always filled with countless desires ... the desire to be somewhere else, be getting somewhere, achieving some prize, some distant goal. This may be a common element of many flavors of "mindfulness" meditation as well, if done for some objective such as relaxation, greater efficiency or the like. Our body-mind is always judging this or that as somehow inadequate to what the body-mind wants, its likes and dislikes, needs, regrets and dreams.

Thus, when there is sat an instant of Shikantaza as wholeness in just sitting, with a view of the act of sitting as thoroughly sacred and whole just in the act of sitting alone ... the only place to be and act to do in that instant in all of reality that is required to fulfill life as life ... the Buddha and all the Ancestors just sitting in that instant of sitting, no other thing to attain or which ever can be attained ... no other place to go or in need of going ... all holes filled, whether full or empty or in between ...

... then all lack and excess are resolved in that one sitting, with not one thing to add or take away ... judgments dropped away, "likes and dislikes" put aside ... nothing missing from Zazen ... the sitting of Zazen and all life experienced as complete and whole as just the sitting of Zazen ... the entire universe manifesting itself on the Zafu cushion at that moment. Image

Anyway, I ask our folks to sit with such non-attitude in the bones, rendering Zazen a bit unlike functional ways of meditating.

Why? There is a purpose to this "purposeless" Zazen:

For, rising up from the Zafu sitting cushion to our day to day lives ... we may thus realize that there is no place to go, even as we have so many places to go ... no holes in need of filling, even as we grab a shovel and get to work to filling holes ... nothing to fix in life, even as we try to fix what can be fixed ... no life or death or disease to cure, even as we take our medicine or head to the gym, all on the road to our own funeral ... aversions and attractions fully dropped away, even as we retain those aversions and attractions of ordinary human life (dropped away and retained at once) ... nothing to attain, even as we follow the Precepts to keep a healthy and balanced life, manifesting the Teachings in each moment and choice ... fully knowing that each step of life's path is a total arriving, sacred in itself, even as we seek to choose the path to a balanced and loving life (and to avoid the paths which lead off the cliff!)

--All-- the Wholeness of the Dance.

As I said, every teacher has their shtick in teaching. Even, I feel (just one opinion), many teachers of so-called "Just Sitting" do not emphasize enough such sacredness and wholeness right in the action-non-action of sitting. Most mindfulness approaches are not taught with such a flavor in my limited understanding.

Gassho, Jundo
Priest/Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha. Treeleaf Zendo was designed as an online practice place for Zen practitioners who cannot easily commute to a Zen Center due to health concerns, living in remote areas, or work, childcare and family needs, and seeks to provide Zazen sittings, retreats, discussion, interaction with a teacher, and all other activities of a Zen Buddhist Sangha, all fully online. The focus is Shikantaza "Just Sitting" Zazen as instructed by the 13th Century Japanese Master, Eihei Dogen. http://www.treeleaf.org
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dzogchungpa
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Re: Is Zen Mindfulness?

Post by dzogchungpa »

jundo cohen wrote:As I said, every teacher has their shtick in teaching.
Apparently it's called a keisaku.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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Matt J
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Re: Is Zen Mindfulness?

Post by Matt J »

For me, a lot of purposeless Zen meditation became resting in dullness, or the sinking mind. I don't think this is what the masters meant.
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Re: Is Zen Mindfulness?

Post by jundo cohen »

dzogchungpa wrote:
jundo cohen wrote:As I said, every teacher has their shtick in teaching.
Apparently it's called a keisaku.
That's a stick.

This is a shtick ... :quoteunquote:
a gimmick, comic routine, style of performance, etc. associated with a particular person.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shtick

Gassho, Jundo
Priest/Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha. Treeleaf Zendo was designed as an online practice place for Zen practitioners who cannot easily commute to a Zen Center due to health concerns, living in remote areas, or work, childcare and family needs, and seeks to provide Zazen sittings, retreats, discussion, interaction with a teacher, and all other activities of a Zen Buddhist Sangha, all fully online. The focus is Shikantaza "Just Sitting" Zazen as instructed by the 13th Century Japanese Master, Eihei Dogen. http://www.treeleaf.org
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dzogchungpa
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Re: Is Zen Mindfulness?

Post by dzogchungpa »

jundo cohen wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:
jundo cohen wrote:As I said, every teacher has their shtick in teaching.
Apparently it's called a keisaku.
That's a stick.

This is a shtick ... :quoteunquote:
a gimmick, comic routine, style of performance, etc. associated with a particular person.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shtick

Gassho, Jundo
Oh, OK. How do you say shtick in Japanese?
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
DGA
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Re: Is Zen Mindfulness?

Post by DGA »

There have been times in my life when I've been deeply grateful for the application of that stick to either side of my neck.

True story.

My Japanese isn't perfect, but something close to schtick might be ギャグ.
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dzogchungpa
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Re: Is Zen Mindfulness?

Post by dzogchungpa »

DGA wrote:My Japanese isn't perfect, but something close to schtick might be ギャグ.
Possibly of interest:
http://ja.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=shtick
http://ja.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=schtick
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
DGA
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Re: Is Zen Mindfulness?

Post by DGA »

Yeah, I just went with the first result that google translate gave me. Japanese is hard! 日本語が難しいです!

:coffee:
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dzogchungpa
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Re: Is Zen Mindfulness?

Post by dzogchungpa »

I bet Queequeg would know.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Is Zen Mindfulness?

Post by boda »

jundo cohen wrote: ... the entire universe manifesting itself on the Zafu cushion at that moment.
I'm no astrophysicist but wouldn't that be a bad thing?
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Re: Is Zen Mindfulness?

Post by Caodemarte »

I suspect that an astrophysicist would say that good or bad, it's inevitable.
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Re: Is Zen Mindfulness?

Post by boda »

Caodemarte wrote:I suspect that an astrophysicist would say that good or bad, it's inevitable.
I suspect that an astrophysicist wouldn't want to be very close to a universe manifesting on a Zafu cushion. But I was just making fun of Jundo's campy shtick.
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Re: Is Zen Mindfulness?

Post by DGA »

boda wrote:
jundo cohen wrote: ... the entire universe manifesting itself on the Zafu cushion at that moment.
I'm no astrophysicist but wouldn't that be a bad thing?
Well, if you take Jundo's comment literally, all you have to imagine is an ass the size of the known universe on a zafu*. on a turtle, on another turtle, on another turtle... I suspect that's not what he meant. If I'm wrong, I hope to be corrected.

That turn of phrase is a very old one in East Asian Buddhism. It goes back to the early years of Ch'an and to the pre-Zen experiences of Japanese Zen patriarchs such as Dogen, who trained first as Tendai priests. Ichinen Sanzen--three thousand worlds in one instant. Here's a good place to start (although the wiki has a strong Nichiren orientation, the sense that Zhiyi was trying to get across is accessible).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_suchnesses


*don't let this happen to you!
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Re: Is Zen Mindfulness?

Post by jundo cohen »

boda wrote:
jundo cohen wrote: ... the entire universe manifesting itself on the Zafu cushion at that moment.
I'm no astrophysicist but wouldn't that be a bad thing?
Well, if you have difficulty with that, then perhaps the Lotus and Flower Garland Sutras, and much of the "all worlds in every mote of dust" Mahayana gets tossed from the window, and we should close up Dharma Wheel! (Although one might ask, where can you "toss" that which holds everything, no tosser tossed or tossee?)

Astrophysicists have one way of looking at the material, but we can fold and unfold the universe and countless universes into and outto itselfs infinite times within this heartmind.

Perhaps a great number of the experienced sitters here from many fine traditions know this "all space and time boundlessly in this and every timeless moment", so no great mystery. :sage:

Gassho, Jundo
Priest/Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha. Treeleaf Zendo was designed as an online practice place for Zen practitioners who cannot easily commute to a Zen Center due to health concerns, living in remote areas, or work, childcare and family needs, and seeks to provide Zazen sittings, retreats, discussion, interaction with a teacher, and all other activities of a Zen Buddhist Sangha, all fully online. The focus is Shikantaza "Just Sitting" Zazen as instructed by the 13th Century Japanese Master, Eihei Dogen. http://www.treeleaf.org
boda
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Re: Is Zen Mindfulness?

Post by boda »

jundo cohen wrote:Astrophysicists have one way of looking at the material, but we can fold and unfold the universe and countless universes into and outto itselfs infinite times within this heartmind.
You can dream up the idea of such abilities of course. But even your wildest imaginings are quite limited. What are they limited by?
Perhaps a great number of the experienced sitters here from many fine traditions know this "all space and time boundlessly in this and every timeless moment", so no great mystery.
:tongue: No mystery indeed.
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Re: Is Zen Mindfulness?

Post by jundo cohen »

boda wrote:
jundo cohen wrote:Astrophysicists have one way of looking at the material, but we can fold and unfold the universe and countless universes into and outto itselfs infinite times within this heartmind.
You can dream up the idea of such abilities of course. But even your wildest imaginings are quite limited. What are they limited by?
Only limited by the heart and the imagination in this case, I believe.

If able ...

To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wild Flower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour


... then you are Blake and he is you.

Gassho, Jundo
Priest/Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha. Treeleaf Zendo was designed as an online practice place for Zen practitioners who cannot easily commute to a Zen Center due to health concerns, living in remote areas, or work, childcare and family needs, and seeks to provide Zazen sittings, retreats, discussion, interaction with a teacher, and all other activities of a Zen Buddhist Sangha, all fully online. The focus is Shikantaza "Just Sitting" Zazen as instructed by the 13th Century Japanese Master, Eihei Dogen. http://www.treeleaf.org
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Re: Is Zen Mindfulness?

Post by Wayfarer »

Thanks for stopping by, Jundo!

:namaste:
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Re: Is Zen Mindfulness?

Post by boda »

jundo cohen wrote:
boda wrote:
jundo cohen wrote:Astrophysicists have one way of looking at the material, but we can fold and unfold the universe and countless universes into and outto itselfs infinite times within this heartmind.
You can dream up the idea of such abilities of course. But even your wildest imaginings are quite limited. What are they limited by?
Only limited by the heart and the imagination in this case, I believe.

If able ...

To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wild Flower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour


... then you are Blake and he is you.

Gassho, Jundo
You're no Blake, Jundo. Not even in your wildest imagination.
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