Engrossing thoughts

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明安 Myoan
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Engrossing thoughts

Post by 明安 Myoan »

When I meditate, I "wake up" from thoughts or drowsiness hundreds of times, yet the process completely baffles me.
I can only experience it, but not explain it or find a cause behind this process.
Kosho Uchiyama says this "waking up" is the process of zazen, that we don't attain some kind of perfect zazen where we sit lifeless and thoughtless like a rock. At the same time, we don't just aimlessly pursue daydreams.

So a few basic questions about this.
What exactly is happening when we become lost in thought or emotion?
Why, given the thousands of times daydreams have vanished before my eyes, I don't seem to learn from the process or see through them more readily as time goes on?
And why can we notice some perceptions without becoming engrossed, yet others are engrossing? Thoughts pull me in often, yet sounds or touch rarely do. They're more scenery, while thoughts steal the show.
Does it even matter in terms of aiming our practice?

Thanks for any insight to my vague questions.
Namu Amida Butsu
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Astus
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Re: Engrossing thoughts

Post by Astus »

Thoughts are what we think. If you want to stay outside of thoughts, that means two thoughts. It also means you have an idea of what kind of a mental state is desirable while others are not. Thoughts exhaust themselves whether one wants it or not. Thoughts pop up whether one wants it or not. Trouble occurs whenever we think that one thought is good and another thought is bad. So the instruction says: "Don't think of good and evil."

What exactly is happening when we become lost in thought or emotion?

See for yourself what it's like to intentionally think through something, and what it's like when the process ends. What do you call lost then?

Why, given the thousands of times daydreams have vanished before my eyes, I don't seem to learn from the process or see through them more readily as time goes on?

You seem to have learnt that they vanish. What more do you expect?

And why can we notice some perceptions without becoming engrossed, yet others are engrossing? Thoughts pull me in often, yet sounds or touch rarely do. They're more scenery, while thoughts steal the show.

That sounds more like your own arbitrary criteria. How is it different to think of the wall and see the wall? They are both complete unstable experiences.

Does it even matter in terms of aiming our practice?

The practice is to see that there is no thought, emotion or any experience at all that one can grasp, rely on, and identify with. All of them inevitably and unstoppably come and go. To imagine that there is some state or position one can maintain or should cultivate is the wrong idea.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Saoshun
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Re: Engrossing thoughts

Post by Saoshun »

"Engrossing thoughts" is thought, if you make yourself avert to the thoughts and aversion to them your spiritual way is finished as meditator.
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Tao
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Re: Engrossing thoughts

Post by Tao »

Just my opinion based on self-observation

Conscious thought arise mostly due to: desires & aversion, plus lack of calm (stress)

Look and see how there're more thought the more stressful you are, and see how the thoughts returning are related to fears, rejections or desires.

That's why "rejecting" thoughts is not a good idea... you're fueling them.

Mind will get attached (which means that your attention will be drawn to...) to perception that is related to desire or aversion. That's why many sounds or touch doesnt "hypnotize you" but some of them and thought will do...

So for me the answers are:

> What exactly is happening when we become lost in thought or emotion?

They're of interest to the mind (desire and aversion) so your attention is attached to them...

>Why, given the thousands of times daydreams have vanished before my eyes, I don't seem to learn from the process or see through them more readily as time goes on?

Because the root cause is not adressed

>And why can we notice some perceptions without becoming engrossed, yet others are engrossing? Thoughts pull me in often, yet sounds or touch rarely do. They're more scenery, while thoughts steal the show.

Because some perception are causing your mind to get "interested" and some others not.

> Does it even matter in terms of aiming our practice?

It doesnt matter, just stop grasping and rejecting and be calm...


Sorry for my english
SeeLion
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Re: Engrossing thoughts

Post by SeeLion »

It may be helpful to look for the motivation.

As in you're thinking of something that you have desire for or worry about, etc.

If you're doing some kind of concentration meditation, it can be helpful to bring your attention to the object of meditation, again and again, with patience, when you get lost in thoughts.
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Re: Engrossing thoughts

Post by jundo cohen »

Hi Monlan,

Perhaps your concerns and some of the philosophizing by others is making this overly complicated. That makes this harder than it need be. As in the simple act of walking, analyzing too much the process leads to the right foot tripping over the left.

Release thoughts and emotions, do not stir them up nor grab on, avoid to be tangled. Allow thoughts and emotions to come and go without grabbing. If finding oneself hooked by thoughts and emotions, let go and let them be once again. Repeat and repeat 10,000 times and 10,000 times again. There are many ways to do that ... coming back to the posture as Uchiyama recommends, to the breath, Hara, palm of the hand or to "open spacious nonjudgmeantal awareness" as I recommend to folks (no so important which).

In doing so, one may learn to find a boundless clear mind which shines when the thoughts are let be. There is clarity, simplicity, illumination, wholeness. All is as it is. When the thoughts return, one may actually find that the light shines through the thoughts themselves, making what was murky now translucent, divided now whole.

The effect is sometimes referred to as "mirror mind". The bright, clear, welcoming surface of the mirror allows now whatever comes within ... beautiful or ugly, tall or short, joyful or sad ... with equanimity, smoothness and non-resistance.

Now, if you are having problems with the practice after a very long period of sitting, it is possible that you are trying too hard (such as by thinking about and trying to force the process too much), going about it the wrong way such as by searching for the wrong result, were shown wrong or even that you just don't have a talent for it (like violin, not everyone has what it takes to play Shikantaza, although I think most folks can).

Keep it simple. Don't trip over your own feet.

Gassho, Jundo
Priest/Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha. Treeleaf Zendo was designed as an online practice place for Zen practitioners who cannot easily commute to a Zen Center due to health concerns, living in remote areas, or work, childcare and family needs, and seeks to provide Zazen sittings, retreats, discussion, interaction with a teacher, and all other activities of a Zen Buddhist Sangha, all fully online. The focus is Shikantaza "Just Sitting" Zazen as instructed by the 13th Century Japanese Master, Eihei Dogen. http://www.treeleaf.org
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Nosta
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Re: Engrossing thoughts

Post by Nosta »

Monlan, your questions are very important and they look like the kind of question that only a highly acomplished master could answer and help. Nevertheless, I would like to see the answers.
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Re: Engrossing thoughts

Post by Saoshun »

Thoughts appear because you are identified with something which you are not. Try to find out with which things (either body or mind) you are identified if you can see clearly that you are not this body or mind that's the stream entry and you will have freedom from thoughts without effort. (with possibility to use your mind in case you need too)
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明安 Myoan
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Re: Engrossing thoughts

Post by 明安 Myoan »

Thanks, I find some responses clear and instructive. Others are maybe answering my question with my question.
Wanting peaceful or less abundant thoughts makes as much sense as wanting only robins to sing outside your window, at least to me as someone practicing Soto and Pure Land.

In this other post by Astus, he/she quotes many pithy instructions: http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.ph ... 50#p304004
We are simply aware of and accepting of what comes up, just as it is - without running away from it or clinging to it.
fantasising and associating, leave them as they are.
Do not think of “good” or “evil.” When a thought arises be aware of it; as soon as you are aware of it, it will disappear.
And Jundo wrote "Release thoughts and emotions, do not stir them up nor grab on, avoid to be tangled."
Everyone's on the same page so far.
So zazen is not solely daydreaming, falling asleep, fantasizing, getting tangled up, that experience where A somehow becomes B, C, D.
While sitting, I think of good and evil, fantasize and associate, then wake up to the posture a thousand times.
And yet if we follow these fantasies unawares, that is life of a person who cycles through birth and death. So zazen isn't nothing at all.

It's this process of tangling/untangling in sensory phenomena that I'm asking about, just what is going on, and whether examining it in this way is helpful or not, in posters' opinions.
I'm not looking for lights, bliss, or wisdom on the mountain.
Namu Amida Butsu
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Astus
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Re: Engrossing thoughts

Post by Astus »

Monlam Tharchin wrote:It's this process of tangling/untangling in sensory phenomena that I'm asking about, just what is going on, and whether examining it in this way is helpful or not, in posters' opinions.
When there is a concept/feeling of what is correct meditation, in order to maintain that state takes practice and effort, and even then it is eventually lost. That idea of correctness occurs right when one thinks that there is a point where meditation begins. It becomes a unique activity. On the other hand, when one just sits around, like waiting on the corridor for someone, or sitting down on a bench to rest one's legs, at those times the mind is aware and calm without effort. True, after a few moments one can feel bored, or one automatically grabs something to serve as a distraction. But just before beginning to fiddle with something, it is nothing special. Is that what you would call an untangled mind? And then, out of habit, an impulse, one begins to take up something to play with. Is that what you call tangled? And right in that distinction of labelling tangled bad and untangled good the idea is established that one should be in one way but not another. In that way it is no different from any calming meditation technique where one has to return again and again to the object. In fact, it is probably just that. However, when ideas of good and bad mind states are put aside, what is there to awake from?

Consider these classic stories:

Huike said to Bodhidharma, “My mind is anxious. Please pacify it.” To which Bodhidharma replied, “Bring me your mind, and I will pacify it.” Huike said, “Although I’ve sought it, I cannot find it.” Bodhidharma then said, “There, I have pacified your mind.”

Daoxin said, “I ask for the master’s compassion. Please tell me of the gate of emancipation.” Sengcan said, “Who has bound you?” Daoxin said, “No one has bound me.” Sengcan said, “Then why are you seeking emancipation?”
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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明安 Myoan
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Re: Engrossing thoughts

Post by 明安 Myoan »

Hi, Astus. I feel we're almost at the marrow of the issue for me.
Opening the Hand of Thought wrote:Since desires and cravings are actually a manifestation of life force, there is no reason to hate them and try to extinguish the. And yet, if we become dragged around by them and chase after them, then our life becomes fogged over. The important point here is not to cause life to be fogged over by thought based on desires or cravings, but to see all thoughts and desires as resting on the foundation of life, to let them be as they are, yet not be dragged around by them. It is not a matter of making a great effort not to be dragged around by desires. It is just waking up and returning to the reality of life that is essential."
What then, given your post, might "life fogged over by thought" be?
We're on the same page that zazen must not be calming technique #1094 out of how many others there are.

For what there is to awaken from, the answer to me is suffering.
We can use emptiness to undermine a basis for entanglement/suffering, but the appearance of entanglement nevertheless remains for me.
Hence I'm not Linji's "businessless person" but someone who still tries to discern a path.
As such, there is the distinction between zazen and daydreaming or sleeping, as seemingly described in book I quoted, and no amount of thoughts linked together has yet undone that.
Am I simply completely mistaken? :shrug:

Thank you :cheers:
Namu Amida Butsu
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Tao
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Re: Engrossing thoughts

Post by Tao »

>It's this process of tangling/untangling in sensory phenomena that I'm asking about

In fact, everytime you "see" a thought in zazen (or rest of the time) and let it go without any attachment, you're untangling from thought... you're training your mind to untangle, you're avoiding attachment and the mind learns... and begins to break attachments to thoughts...

If you attach to thought, dukkha is never ending as never ending are thoughts about false future and past.

Thought it's ok if it cannot produce dukkha in you, so you need to be thoughtless if it's possible or, zen way, released from attachment to thought.

Awakening (seeing completely your empty nature) gives you the ultimate tool to do that, as you can see thought as not-you, they're there but they're not your identity, they're, of course, part of your skandhas but just that...
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Re: Engrossing thoughts

Post by Astus »

Monlam Tharchin wrote:What then, given your post, might "life fogged over by thought" be?
That is taking experiences to be substantial, to be self or related to the self, to be important. It is like seeing a shadow and mistaking it for a snake - there is a shadow, but it can appear as something solid and threatening (or attractive), because we quickly associate the sight with an idea, and with that idea comes other thoughts and emotions. That is only an example, and as such can lead to the wrong concept that one should not make mistakes and have no fears whatsoever, but that would be the idea of "thoughts are bad, no thoughts are good".
For what there is to awaken from, the answer to me is suffering.
Suffering is the effect of delusion, not the cause. The cause is the belief that experiences (five aggregates & six senses) are enduring, satisfying, and controllable; or simply that they are substantial and one can and should do something with them. However, samsara cannot be fixed. The very idea that one has to fix life is the cause of the problems. That's why in zazen there is nothing to keep or let go. Waking up is only waking up from the delusion of anything to attain or be free from.
As such, there is the distinction between zazen and daydreaming or sleeping, as seemingly described in book I quoted, and no amount of thoughts linked together has yet undone that.
We are dependent origination itself. Dream is the whole of life. Looking for nirvana anywhere beyond is like adding another head.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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