Taigen Shodo Harada Roshi Introduction to Zen

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kirtu
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Taigen Shodo Harada Roshi Introduction to Zen

Post by kirtu »

Taigen Shodo Harada Roshi Introduction to Zen - The entire video is in Japanese, turn the English subtitles on using [CC].

phpBB [video]
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
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Re: Taigen Shodo Harada Roshi Introduction to Zen

Post by jundo cohen »

Hi,

Thank you for sharing. In my little opinion, Harada Roshi is one of the great living teachers.

I just wish to say at times like this that such videos should best be called "An Introduction to One Approach to Zen", because the Zen ice cream parlor purveys many delicious flavors. It is as if a particular Nyingma Rinpoche's approach was called an "Introduction to (All) Tibetan Buddhism." Though powerful and lovely, it is of just one wayless way. There are, of course, differences between the Rinzai way of Koan Introspection and the Soto way of Shikantaza, although the same creamy sweetness is present ... differentless differences.

Anyway ...

Gassho, J

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Priest/Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha. Treeleaf Zendo was designed as an online practice place for Zen practitioners who cannot easily commute to a Zen Center due to health concerns, living in remote areas, or work, childcare and family needs, and seeks to provide Zazen sittings, retreats, discussion, interaction with a teacher, and all other activities of a Zen Buddhist Sangha, all fully online. The focus is Shikantaza "Just Sitting" Zazen as instructed by the 13th Century Japanese Master, Eihei Dogen. http://www.treeleaf.org
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Re: Taigen Shodo Harada Roshi Introduction to Zen

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jundo cohen wrote: I just wish to say at times like this that such videos should best be called "An Introduction to One Approach to Zen", because the Zen ice cream parlor purveys many delicious flavors....There are, of course, differences between the Rinzai way of Koan Introspection and the Soto way of Shikantaza, although the same creamy sweetness is present ... differentless differences.
Well that's true. But every teachers introduction to Zen will be somewhat different. I didn't watch all of the video myself - did Harada Roshi actually get into shinkantaza or koan study in his short introduction?

Naturally Zen practice will be somewhat different from zendo to zendo and of course from lineage to lineage (and even within the same lineage). But did Harada Roshi get beyond just basic sitting and bowing?

Thanks!

Kirt
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
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Re: Taigen Shodo Harada Roshi Introduction to Zen

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kirtu wrote:Well that's true. But every teachers introduction to Zen will be somewhat different. I didn't watch all of the video myself - did Harada Roshi actually get into shinkantaza or koan study in his short introduction?
Long talk on posture and breathing, then in the last few minutes mentioned how this calmness can eventually be brought out to everyday life and that is the "helping all beings" attitude. But mostly it's about detailing the basics of his style of zazen.

It is interesting how he explained the posture with chi, while there is Nishijima going on about the nervous system. However, neither of the two can be found in the sutras, treatises or even Zen classics. Nevertheless, apparently both feel the need to explain the posture with some non-Buddhist philosophy.

Still, all these nice physical and mental athletics, while perfectly fine and useful in a way, do not really touch the Zen of the buddhas and patriarchs, i.e. seeing into nature.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Taigen Shodo Harada Roshi Introduction to Zen

Post by jundo cohen »

kirtu wrote:
Naturally Zen practice will be somewhat different from zendo to zendo and of course from lineage to lineage (and even within the same lineage). But did Harada Roshi get beyond just basic sitting and bowing?
Hi Kirt,

No, it is just about sitting, but there are subtle differences in flavoring even so. Harada Roshi's way is a powerful, wondrous way of sitting, very orthodox in many corners of Japanese Zen, but maybe another cook would spice things differently.

For example, I think there is a certain instrumental flavor to his description .... using Zazen as a tool to attain a resultant focused, peaceful, concentrated, clear start of mind.

If I were in the kitchen. I would emphasize more the radical completeness and wholenss of the simple act of sitting, removing all instrumentality from the sitting such that one sits with a sense of total resolution ... nothing to add or take away ... in the act itself. There is nothing more to do or which needs to be done in the whole universe in that moment, no special state of mind to attain (although, guess what? In sitting so, with all sense of lack removed, one still will attain the very same state of peace, focus and clarity that Harada describes in all its vibrancy. One just does so with less aiming to get there, because human beings need to get over their drug addiction to attaining attaining attaining).

The other things is, like many Japanese teachers (Nishijima was so), a heavy emphasis on sitting in the Lotus suited for flexible people with thin legs and forgiving joints. In the west, people tend to sit in a variety of balanced positions, and it is less "one side fits all". I place less emphasis on one posture, and more on the sacredness, wholeness and completeness of the act of Zazen itself whatever the balanced posture.

Just this cooks way of non-making soup.
Astus wrote: Still, all these nice physical and mental athletics, while perfectly fine and useful in a way, do not really touch the Zen of the buddhas and patriarchs, i.e. seeing into nature.
Hi Astua,

That is the case, that seeing the nature is where's its atlessly at.

But what makes you think that the pure act of sitting and "seeing the nature" are necessarily two things?

Gassho, Jundo
Priest/Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha. Treeleaf Zendo was designed as an online practice place for Zen practitioners who cannot easily commute to a Zen Center due to health concerns, living in remote areas, or work, childcare and family needs, and seeks to provide Zazen sittings, retreats, discussion, interaction with a teacher, and all other activities of a Zen Buddhist Sangha, all fully online. The focus is Shikantaza "Just Sitting" Zazen as instructed by the 13th Century Japanese Master, Eihei Dogen. http://www.treeleaf.org
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Re: Taigen Shodo Harada Roshi Introduction to Zen

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jundo cohen wrote:That is the case, that seeing the nature is where's its atlessly at.
Atlessly? Less likely? At least? Sorry, I don't get it.
But what makes you think that the pure act of sitting and "seeing the nature" are necessarily two things?
Depends on what you mean by pure act.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Taigen Shodo Harada Roshi Introduction to Zen

Post by jundo cohen »

Astus wrote:
jundo cohen wrote:
Atlessly? Less likely? At least? Sorry, I don't get it.
Oh, just that the nature is not a place one gets to, and is then "at" ... so I invented "atlessly at" to convey the experience.

Just silliless silliness.

Gassho, J
Priest/Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha. Treeleaf Zendo was designed as an online practice place for Zen practitioners who cannot easily commute to a Zen Center due to health concerns, living in remote areas, or work, childcare and family needs, and seeks to provide Zazen sittings, retreats, discussion, interaction with a teacher, and all other activities of a Zen Buddhist Sangha, all fully online. The focus is Shikantaza "Just Sitting" Zazen as instructed by the 13th Century Japanese Master, Eihei Dogen. http://www.treeleaf.org
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Re: Taigen Shodo Harada Roshi Introduction to Zen

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Astus wrote: It is interesting how he explained the posture with chi, while there is Nishijima going on about the nervous system. However, neither of the two can be found in the sutras, treatises or even Zen classics. Nevertheless, apparently both feel the need to explain the posture with some non-Buddhist philosophy.
Chi/ki is of course found in Chinese Traditional Medicine and in meditation instructions from China (I would expect it to be mentioned for example in Confucian meditation instructions as well). It comes in part from India but also from East Asia directly (the history of chi is complicated). At any rate it was taken to Japan (or incorporated within Japanese notions of chi/ki - they may well have discovered it independently as well) and is definitely found in traditional instruction.

Kirt
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
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Re: Taigen Shodo Harada Roshi Introduction to Zen

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kirtu wrote:is definitely found in traditional instruction.
Which one? Can you point to some classic Buddhist meditation manuals discussing it?
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Taigen Shodo Harada Roshi Introduction to Zen

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Astus wrote:
kirtu wrote:is definitely found in traditional instruction.
Which one? Can you point to some classic Buddhist meditation manuals discussing it?
Kapleau may mention it, Aitken Roshi mentioned it in at least one of his books (I cannot check these sources at any rate since I no longer have these in my library, unfortunately), it was mentioned to me personally at Zen Mountain Monastery at least once and it was mentioned to me by a senior Kwan Um teacher although they probably themselves did not really accept it.

So it's more oral instruction (or more correctly included in oral instruction that I have received).

Kirt
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
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Re: Taigen Shodo Harada Roshi Introduction to Zen

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kirtu wrote:So it's more oral instruction (or more correctly included in oral instruction that I have received).
There are not that many meditation manuals in the canon, and almost none from the Zen school. It's quite another matter that certain teachers use old Chinese medical ideas in their oral instructions, but that's a cultural thing.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Taigen Shodo Harada Roshi Introduction to Zen

Post by Meido »

Astus wrote:There are not that many meditation manuals in the canon, and almost none from the Zen school. It's quite another matter that certain teachers use old Chinese medical ideas in their oral instructions, but that's a cultural thing.
Since in Chan/Zen almost all practice details are orally transmitted, it's true we're not left with much in terms of texts to cite. Naturally on the Japanese Rinzai side the works of Hakuin, Torei and so on give a great deal of instruction in terms of energetic practices which are still transmitted (though again, the texts do not transmit the entirety of the oral instruction). However, I have yet to meet any Zen (Soto or Rinzai) or Chan teacher whose instruction did not contain references to ki/qi, directions on where the breath and energy should be placed and cultivated, instruction for recognizing energetic imbalances and exercises prescribed to remedy such, etc. So I would not say that it is simply a case of "certain teachers".

On a somewhat related note, it is often mentioned that Hakuin's nanso no ho practice is similar to something described in the Agamas, but I have yet to discern where. Any pointers appreciated.

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Re: Taigen Shodo Harada Roshi Introduction to Zen

Post by jundo cohen »

Meido wrote: However, I have yet to meet any Zen (Soto or Rinzai) or Chan teacher whose instruction did not contain references to ki/qi, directions on where the breath and energy should be placed and cultivated, instruction for recognizing energetic imbalances and exercises prescribed to remedy such, etc. So I would not say that it is simply a case of "certain teachers".
Hi Meido,

That certainly may be true, especially for the more traditional or older generations. Certainly more true in Japan than out of it although (as you demonstrate) found on both sides of the Pacific. There is so much in kirigami traditions about such things.

However, some of us do not put much stock in traditional models of "ki/qi" and "energies". Don't believe it, and these ideas do not comport with modern notions of either physiology or how the world works (I know some may disagree for sure).

Breath is another matter, although Dogen is said to have been more a "let long breaths be long, short breaths be short" just as it is laissez faire type.

Gassho, Jundo
Priest/Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha. Treeleaf Zendo was designed as an online practice place for Zen practitioners who cannot easily commute to a Zen Center due to health concerns, living in remote areas, or work, childcare and family needs, and seeks to provide Zazen sittings, retreats, discussion, interaction with a teacher, and all other activities of a Zen Buddhist Sangha, all fully online. The focus is Shikantaza "Just Sitting" Zazen as instructed by the 13th Century Japanese Master, Eihei Dogen. http://www.treeleaf.org
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Re: Taigen Shodo Harada Roshi Introduction to Zen

Post by Meido »

jundo cohen wrote:That certainly may be true, especially for the more traditional or older generations. Certainly more true in Japan than out of it although (as you demonstrate) found on both sides of the Pacific. There is so much in kirigami traditions about such things.

However, some of us do not put much stock in traditional models of "ki/qi" and "energies". Don't believe it, and these ideas do not comport with modern notions of either physiology or how the world works (I know some may disagree for sure).

Breath is another matter, although Dogen is said to have been more a "let long breaths be long, short breaths be short" just as it is laissez faire type.
Hi Jundo,

Sure, when I said "I have yet to meet any Zen (Soto or Rinzai) or Chan teacher whose instruction did not contain references to ki/qi" I did mean that literally: there are plenty I haven't met (including yourself). FWIW, the Zen teachers I've met and practiced with were indeed mostly native Japanese or Chinese.

I personally don't see inherent conflict between traditional descriptions and evolving physiological understanding. I'd have no problem with, for example, using what we are learning about the enteric nervous system to inform the traditional emphasis on hara/tanden. Interestingly today I've just finished laying out text authored by one of our late teachers which describes the purpose of traditional okyo practice simultaneously from the standpoints of music theory, particle physics as well as in/yo theory and ki.

I primarily use the traditional maps and descriptions for two reasons: they work, and that's what I inherited. But if other maps/descriptions - old or modern - also work just as well and prove useful, I think it's no problem: probably better to have varied tools for different folks.

Best,
Meido
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Re: Taigen Shodo Harada Roshi Introduction to Zen

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Meido wrote:Naturally on the Japanese Rinzai side the works of Hakuin, Torei and so on give a great deal of instruction in terms of energetic practices which are still transmitted (though again, the texts do not transmit the entirety of the oral instruction).
As you say, when such elements were included, you can find them in texts. Similarly, their lack in teachings mean that they were not considered important, mainstream, or did not exist at all.
However, I have yet to meet any Zen (Soto or Rinzai) or Chan teacher whose instruction did not contain references to ki/qi, directions on where the breath and energy should be placed and cultivated, instruction for recognizing energetic imbalances and exercises prescribed to remedy such, etc. So I would not say that it is simply a case of "certain teachers".
Remedying hindrances is part of any manual, like the Zazen-yojinki. It could be an interesting research to find out when exactly such energy related elements started to occur.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Taigen Shodo Harada Roshi Introduction to Zen

Post by Meido »

Astus wrote:As you say, when such elements were included, you can find them in texts. Similarly, their lack in teachings mean that they were not considered important, mainstream, or did not exist at all.
Well, that was not exactly my point, again given the penchant for keeping a lot of practical instruction oral. I would say that open, explicit textual description - as Hakuin provides - is really an exception, not the rule, and I do not think the lack of such explicit description confirms absence. My feeling (from my limited viewpoint and experience) is rather that these things - for whatever reason and whatever their origins - came at some point to permeate much of the Zen world.

And I do not think there is any grounds for saying that point was in Japan, or as late as Hakuin. The anecdotes recorded in the Shonan Kattoroku reveal that Chinese Chan teachers coming over to Japan in the Kamakura period - right at the end of the Song - were talking about tanden power, etc., and even requiring their Japanese students to concretely demonstrate mastery of such things in dokusan through use of the katsu shout. So here we might guess that these understandings and their applications in practice were not uncommon among Chinese Chan masters of that time - at least, the ones coming to Japan (another interesting consideration perhaps) - rather than something exceptional.

We don't have any texts from those masters that I know of recording explicit energetic cultivation practice instructions as Hakuin provides: we just know they emphasized such things because Japanese students recorded and preserved the verbal encounters and anecdotes. Yet, reading about that Zen practice that people in Hojo Tokimune's time were doing, and then reading Hakuin's writings from the Edo, and then the writings of some 20th century teachers, we see a continuity of emphasis. That being the case, I have no practical reason to question the traditional claim that these things are important for practitioners to grasp, whether taught implicitly or explicitly according to each teacher's or line's "house style". Admittedly, I am not speaking as a scholar.
Astus wrote:Remedying hindrances is part of any manual, like the Zazen-yojinki. It could be an interesting research to find out when exactly such energy related elements started to occur.
It would indeed (as we've previously lamented I think!)

~ Meido
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Re: Taigen Shodo Harada Roshi Introduction to Zen

Post by DGA »

Meido wrote:
And I do not think there is any grounds for saying that point was in Japan, or as late as Hakuin. The anecdotes recorded in the Shonan Kattoroku reveal that Chinese Chan teachers coming over to Japan in the Kamakura period - right at the end of the Song - were talking about tanden power, etc., and even requiring their Japanese students to concretely demonstrate mastery of such things in dokusan through use of the katsu shout. So here we might guess that these understandings and their applications in practice were not uncommon among Chinese Chan masters of that time - at least, the ones coming to Japan (another interesting consideration perhaps) - rather than something exceptional.
I have reason to think that such practices may have been transmitted from China to Japan in some form in the Tang period, but I can't confirm or elaborate.
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Re: Taigen Shodo Harada Roshi Introduction to Zen

Post by tingdzin »

I have only studied in depth with one Zen teacher. What some here are calling culturally-bound (and by implication, dispensible) practices were decidely a part of his teaching, too. It seemed to me (not wanting to put words in his mouth) that these were usually given in response to particular situations, rather than as one-size-fits-all prescriptions -- part of the oral tradition which is best tailored to the needs of individual practitioners or certain circumstances. I have never seen them in any book (but I admit I don't read Chinese or Japanese).

I really think that whether we are actually practicing Theravada, Zen, or Vajrayana Buddhiam (though especially, perhaps the latter two), there is a lot of stuff that just doesn't get into texts, or does so only rarely, but is based on the acuity of individual masters and their evaluation of a given student and a particular situation.
Astus wrote: Similarly, their lack in teachings mean that they were not considered important, mainstream, or did not exist at all.


This, I think, is a stunningly wrongheaded statement, based on my own experience. Up until the latter half of the twentieth century, for example, a lot of esoteric Tibetan stuff was passed on strictly orally. While Zen is not Vajrayana, it seems to me there are still many things in the latter that students just don't hear about until they have been around for some time and made a commitment. Also, by the way, teachings not being "mainstream" does not mean they could not be vitally important; it could be that a teacher wanted to evaluate a disciple thoroughly over a long period before imparting them.

I hink there are some hidden (or not so hidden, in some cases) agendas being displayed here. Have to see what direction this thread takes.
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Re: Taigen Shodo Harada Roshi Introduction to Zen

Post by Astus »

tingdzin wrote:This, I think, is a stunningly wrongheaded statement, based on my own experience. Up until the latter half of the twentieth century, for example, a lot of esoteric Tibetan stuff was passed on strictly orally. While Zen is not Vajrayana, it seems to me there are still many things in the latter that students just don't hear about until they have been around for some time and made a commitment. Also, by the way, teachings not being "mainstream" does not mean they could not be vitally important; it could be that a teacher wanted to evaluate a disciple thoroughly over a long period before imparting them.
There were a lot of oral/personal instructions in Zen, and they were included in the records if the circumstances were right. That's what a significant amount of Zen literature is made up of. There was the practice of taking notes during lectures and personal discussions, then they were shared in a smaller or larger circle. Besides those that eventually made it into official records, there are some still in private/monastic collections that survived (e.g. kirigami).

Also, if you note the point at which those explanations involving the body's energetic system in the video come up, it is a topic to be covered at the beginning. It is not some high level secret instruction at all. I'm not saying that it is incorrect, unorthodox, or anything of that kind. But the fact that the language and teachings used are not present within the canonical materials is not because of some conspiracy to hide them.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Taigen Shodo Harada Roshi Introduction to Zen

Post by jundo cohen »

Astus wrote:
Also, if you note the point at which those explanations involving the body's energetic system in the video come up, it is a topic to be covered at the beginning. It is not some high level secret instruction at all. I'm not saying that it is incorrect, unorthodox, or anything of that kind. But the fact that the language and teachings used are not present within the canonical materials is not because of some conspiracy to hide them.
If I may add, nor are many of these beliefs necessarily "Zen" or even "Buddhism." They are just what people in China and Japan used as models to understand how the universe worked and human physiology back in the 12th or 16th Century. People of the time did their best to understand the world, though lacking so much of the information and understanding we have today about how things are put together and function. Zen and other Buddhist Teachers, being men of 12th or 16th Century Asia themselves naturally incorporated these widely held beliefs into their own models of how Zazen works. The belief came first in the society and was dumped into someone's Zen teachings and Kirigami.

All folks with a serious interest in such subjects should do some study of the history of Chinese, Japanese and general Asian scientific (actually, pre-scientific) and medical beliefs. There are many fine books on the topic, I will just point to a couple of the more approachable ...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Science-Culture ... 080481614X

http://www.amazon.com/Cultural-History- ... 0674030427

One of my favorite stories from the books is how the traditional physicians had their own maps and schemes for organ placement and internal physiology to indicate channels for ki flow and such, but never performed autopsies. When the first Western style dissections were performed which disclosed internal structures far different than posited, the traditional physicians claimed that the dissections were wrong!
Educated Japanese could read the literature from China. And since Japanese thought had evolved over the course of centuries through an ongoing interaction with China, Chinese ideas could be more readily assimilated. It was precisely in the 17th century, moreover, that Chinese science and Confucianism were understood and embraced as comprehensive systems - maybe for the first time ever in Sino-Japanese intercourse. ... Small wonder, therefore, that they didn't take all that much interest in the European surgeons' explanations of human anatomy. For Japanese physicians, these explanations did not figure prominently either in theory nor in their day-to-day practice of medicine. ...

,,,

As I already mentioned the first major stride forward was taken by Tôyô Yamawaki (1705-62), a member of the "Ancient Practice School" (ko-ihô-ha). The dissection of human bodies was forbidden since it conflicted with the tenets of Buddhism. However, Yamawaki and Genteki Kosugi (1734-91) managed to obtain permission from the authorities to perform a dissection. In 1754 they had the body of an executed criminal opened up in Kyôto. Five years later Yamawaki published the results of this dissection under the title "Record of the Viscera" (Zôshi). The woodblock illustrations were made by Sukemitsu Asanuma.

Yamawaki's teacher, the famous scholar Gonzan Gotô (1659-1733), had once suggested he dissect an otter. When Yamawaki did so, he could only find eight of the "nine organs" mentioned in the old Chinese classic "Rites of the Zhou" (Zhouli). What he did then was typical. He went to his bookshelves and studied other very old Chinese writings like Shujing ("Book of Documents"), Liezi ("Book of Master Lie"), Guoyu ("Sayings of the States"). But they differed widely on the number of organs. Only then did it occur to him to open up a human body and find out for himself.

...

Most likely, Yamawaki had hardly foreseen the consequences of his investigation. The attacks were vehement and came in part even from the "Ancient Practice School" itself. Its pioneer, Tôdô Yoshimasu (1702-1773), for example, considered the clinical description of diseases and therapy more important than any contemplation of theoretical bases. In his "Medical Talks" (Idan), published in 1759, he wrote that knowledge of anatomy was superfluous in treating the sick. That wasn't entirely untrue. For insights of that kind could not be used in practice. An even more aggressive reaction came from Yasudo Sano in his "Anti-Viscera-Book" (Hi-Zôshi, 1760). In his opinion, the most important thing about an organ isn't its shape, but its spirits, its vitality (shin, ki ). Once they're gone, the organ is but an empty shell. This view has its modern implication by making the dead body just a lump of flesh.[12]
http://wolfgangmichel.web.fc2.com/publ/aufs/64/64.htm
Frankly, traditional medical theories from Japan and China are much more likely to be wrong than right, and most are based on old wives tales. If they are right, it is often by years of trial and error (thus identifying a certain plant as having X medicinal properties may be true, based on centuries of use of the drug. But there are also wild errors in dosage, understanding of mechanism and gathering of anything but anecdotal evidence).

Thus, just because an old Kirigami or the like has some long dead Zen Master's pet theory on energies, bodily functions, ki and the like does not make it so. In fact, just as much chance (or much greater) that the proposal is wrong as that it is right.

Zen folks and martial artists who still emphasize "Hara" need to largely disregard traditional models for what the "Hara" was and how it worked, and bend over backwards to find modern parallels and reinterpretations to try to preserve the worth of the subject. Likewise, for many attempts to preserve the relevancy of many ancient scientific and medical teachings by trying to reinterpret what it is and how it works.

Just my view and interpretation, others are free to disagree. There is a lot in traditional Asian medicine worth keeping and investigating, and also much (much more?) that is just snake oil. (Same for related systems like chiropractic). In fact, they may even be dangerous for misdiagnosing conditions or actually making patients sicker!

That does not mean the modern western medicine has all the answers yet or is a perfect remedy. Far from it.

Gassho, Jundo
Priest/Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha. Treeleaf Zendo was designed as an online practice place for Zen practitioners who cannot easily commute to a Zen Center due to health concerns, living in remote areas, or work, childcare and family needs, and seeks to provide Zazen sittings, retreats, discussion, interaction with a teacher, and all other activities of a Zen Buddhist Sangha, all fully online. The focus is Shikantaza "Just Sitting" Zazen as instructed by the 13th Century Japanese Master, Eihei Dogen. http://www.treeleaf.org
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