Buddha is an Ordinary Fellow

[Arjan Dirkse]

The point is that unlike poor schmucks like us, Buddha does not take rebirth in samsara [i.e. buddhas do not take afflicted birth]. Somehow, what is lost in this discussion is the existential purpose of the Dharma, ending birth in samsara, and aiding other sentient beings to do the same. Without these two aims, there is no Buddhadharma at all.

I agree, but is that extraordinary? In the end we all have Buddha nature, it might be the most supremely ordinary thing of all.

[Malcolm]

The point is that unlike poor schmucks like us, Buddha does not take rebirth in samsara [i.e. buddhas do not take afflicted birth]. Somehow, what is lost in this discussion is the existential purpose of the Dharma, ending birth in samsara, and aiding other sentient beings to do the same. Without these two aims, there is no Buddhadharma at all.

I agree, but is that extraordinary? In the end we all have Buddha nature, it might be the most supremely ordinary thing of all.

While buddhanature is not extraordinary, recognizing it is, and we should not fool ourselves as to how rare it is that it is recognized, let alone realized.

[Astus]

Realizing emptiness is not realizing "dharmakāya." The realization of the dharmakāya is attended by the twin omniscience concerning the nature of what exists and all that exists. Now, if you wish to redefine, or dumb down, dharmakāya to make it seem more attainable, I can't stop you. But it is an error to do so.

No need to dumb down anything. All three knowledges/wisdoms are included in seeing the nature of mind.

[Malcolm]

Realizing emptiness is not realizing "dharmakāya." The realization of the dharmakāya is attended by the twin omniscience concerning the nature of what exists and all that exists. Now, if you wish to redefine, or dumb down, dharmakāya to make it seem more attainable, I can't stop you. But it is an error to do so.

No need to dumb down anything. All three knowledges/wisdoms are included in seeing the nature of mind.

That's it then, just see the nature of the mind and you are omniscient? If this is case, would you then claim that first stage bodhisattvas have not seen the nature of the mind? Because they are certainly not omniscient.

I suspect you are taking a short position on a stock that is going up.

[Astus]

That's it then, just see the nature of the mind and you are omniscient? If this is case, would you then claim that first stage bodhisattvas have not seen the nature of the mind? Because they are certainly not omniscient.

As far as the fully sudden approach goes, only buddhas know it. Consider this previously posted quote, where Huangbo makes it clear what one is enlightened to directly and how it compares to the gradual path.

Also, Dazhu says:

Q: What is Sudden Enlightenment?
A: "Sudden" means instantly stopping false thought. "Enlightenment" means [awareness] that one attains nothing.

and

"Sudden Enlightenment means liberation during this lifetime. Just as a lion-cub, from the moment it is born, is a real lion, likewise anyone who practices the Sudden-Enlightenment method has, from the moment he begins his practice, already entered the Buddha-Stage. Just as the bamboo-shoots growing in springtime are not different from the parent bamboo-shoots, because they are also empty inside, likewise anyone who practices the Sudden-Enlightenment method to rid himself suddenly of false thought abandons, like the Buddhas, the sense of an ego and a personality forever. Being absolutely deep, still and void, he is, then, without an iota of difference, equal to the Buddhas. Thus, in this sense it can be said that the worldly is holy. If one practices the Sudden-Enlightenment method, he can transcend the three realms during this lifetime."

[Malcolm]

That's it then, just see the nature of the mind and you are omniscient? If this is case, would you then claim that first stage bodhisattvas have not seen the nature of the mind? Because they are certainly not omniscient.

As far as the fully sudden approach goes, only buddhas know it. Consider this previously posted quote, where Huangbo makes it clear what one is enlightened to directly and how it compares to the gradual path.

Also, Dazhu says:

Q: What is Sudden Enlightenment?
A: "Sudden" means instantly stopping false thought. "Enlightenment" means [awareness] that one attains nothing.

and

"Sudden Enlightenment means liberation during this lifetime. Just as a lion-cub, from the moment it is born, is a real lion, likewise anyone who practices the Sudden-Enlightenment method has, from the moment he begins his practice, already entered the Buddha-Stage. Just as the bamboo-shoots growing in springtime are not different from the parent bamboo-shoots, because they are also empty inside, likewise anyone who practices the Sudden-Enlightenment method to rid himself suddenly of false thought abandons, like the Buddhas, the sense of an ego and a personality forever. Being absolutely deep, still and void, he is, then, without an iota of difference, equal to the Buddhas. Thus, in this sense it can be said that the worldly is holy. If one practices the Sudden-Enlightenment method, he can transcend the three realms during this lifetime."

Astus,

Being free from rebirth in the three realms is arhatship, not buddhahood. Arhats also realize emptiness.

Question: how is the awakening put forward in Chan different than realization of an Arhat?

M

[Astus]

Question: how is the awakening put forward in Chan different than realization of an Arhat?

See for yourself the differences described:

"Whoever knows that the mind is a fiction and devoid of anything real knows that his own mind neither exists nor doesn’t exist. Mortals keep creating the mind, claiming it exists. And Arhats keep negating the mind, claiming it doesn’t exist. But bodhisattvas and Buddhas neither create nor negate the mind. This is what’s meant by the mind that neither exists nor doesn’t exist. The mind that neither exists nor doesn’t exist is called the Middle Way."
(Bodhidharma: Wake-up Sermon)

"If one allows a thought to arise while seeing, one falls into heresy. When one desires to exterminate birth and death, one falls into the Sravaka realm. One who sees neither birth nor death and is aware only of cessation falls into the Pratyekabuddha realm. However, one might ask: Originally the dharmas know no arising, so how can they be subject to cessation? The answer one might receive is: With this non-dualistic outlook - that is, having neither desire nor aversion - everything is Mind. This alone is the Buddha of Supreme Awakening!"
(Huangbo: Chung-Ling Record)

[Malcolm]

Question: how is the awakening put forward in Chan different than realization of an Arhat?

See for yourself the differences described:

"Whoever knows that the mind is a fiction and devoid of anything real knows that his own mind neither exists nor doesn’t exist. Mortals keep creating the mind, claiming it exists. And Arhats keep negating the mind, claiming it doesn’t exist. But bodhisattvas and Buddhas neither create nor negate the mind. This is what’s meant by the mind that neither exists nor doesn’t exist. The mind that neither exists nor doesn’t exist is called the Middle Way."
(Bodhidharma: Wake-up Sermon)

This is certainly a Mahāyāna doxographical claim. And further, what is the difference then between a bodhisattva and buddha? This distinction in the one that you really fail to tease out.

[jundo cohen]

What is ordinary, what is extra-ordinary? In the end they're just subjective categories we make up to create divisions. Everything is just the way it is.

I don't believe Buddha is extraordinary, but I am not sure wether he is ordinary.

The point is that unlike poor schmucks like us, Buddha does not take rebirth in samsara [i.e. buddhas do not take afflicted birth]. Somehow, what is lost in this discussion is the existential purpose of the Dharma, ending birth in samsara, and aiding other sentient beings to do the same. Without these two aims, there is no Buddhadharma at all.

Hello,

I do not speak for all Buddhists, or even all Zen Buddhists, but I do believe that this statement is not consistent with Zen or Mahayana Buddhism as we know and practice.

Buddhas do not take rebirth in Samsara because there is no birth or death in Buddha. And yet, in every birth and death of humans and flowers, sun and moon, there is Buddha. All Samsara is precisely Buddha in disguise to eyes able to see, merely deluded Samsara to those who can not. To those who can see, Samsara is not Samsara, and yet it is. Sentient beings are not "born in Samsara," they never have been ... they just think they are.

I would recommend to everyone to stop debating these topics, and to get on the cushion, cross the legs, and truly be this.

That's it then, just see the nature of the mind and you are omniscient? If this is case, would you then claim that first stage bodhisattvas have not seen the nature of the mind? Because they are certainly not omniscient.

There is an omniscience which arises in this Practice, the ability to see all minds, all phenomena, all thoughts of man in every blade of grass and sentient being. Oh, it will not help you predict next week's weather or who will win the Derby at Churchill Downs (could the Buddha even do that?), but it will let one know all there is to know just as, in tasting the salt of one drop of sea water, one can taste the entire sea.

If one knows the nature, and the nature is all, then one knows all.

If one is the nature, and the nature is all, then one is all.

Master Dogen comments in Shobogenzo-Kokyo (The Ancient Mirror):

Throughout the universe in the ten directions, does there remain one speck of dust that is not the mirror? On the mirror itself, does there remain one speck of dust that is not the mirror? Remember, the whole universe is not lands of dust and so it is the face of the eternal mirror
…
Remember, the eternal mirror under discussion now has a time of being polished, a time before being polished, and [a time] after being polished, but it is wholly the eternal mirror. … Before being polished the eternal mirror is not dull. Even if [people] call it black, it can never be dull

...

Just this moment is miscellaneous bits of utter delusion, in hundred thousand myriads of shining mirror reflections.

---

Great Master Seppō Shinkaku on one occasion preaches to the assembly, “If you want to understand this matter,
my concrete state is like one face of the eternal mirror. [When] a foreigner comes, a foreigner appears. [When] a Chinese person comes, a Chinese person appears.”
Then Gensha steps out and asks, “If suddenly a clear mirror comes along, what then?”
The master says, “The foreigner and the Chinese person both become invisible.”
Gensha says, “I am not like that.”
Seppō says, “How is it in your case? … If suddenly a clear mirror comes along, how will it be then?”
Gensha says, “Smashed into hundreds of bits and pieces!”

[On which Dogen Comments;]

... “one face” means[the mirror’s] borders have been eliminated forever and it is utterly beyond inside and outside; it is the self as a pearl spinning in a bowl. … To Seppō’s present words “The foreigner and the Chinese person both become invisible,”he might add, “and the mirror itself also becomes invisible.” … “but why, when I have just asked you to give me back a concrete fragment, did you give me back a clear mirror?”

… To insist that even when “the foreigner and the Chinese person are both invisible,” the mirror will remain, is to be blind to appearance and to be remiss with regard to coming.

The self as clear mirror, as a pearl spinning in a bowl is omniscience.

Gassho, J

[Caodemarte]

[Wayfarer]

With this non-dualistic outlook - that is, having neither desire nor aversion - everything is Mind. This alone is the Buddha of Supreme Awakening!"

...Anyone who practices the Sudden-Enlightenment method to rid himself suddenly of false thought abandons, like the Buddhas, the sense of an ego and a personality forever. Being absolutely deep, still and void, he is, then, without an iota of difference, equal to the Buddhas.

Are these the sayings of 'an ordinary fellow?' Are 'ordinary fellows' 'absolutely deep, still and void, and 'devoid of ego and personality forever''?

Related point: what original term is being translated as 'mind' in these verses? It might have a much more profound meaning that what moderns understand by the term, which I suspect is much closer to what Zen would call 'discursive thought'.

[DGA]

If one knows the nature, and the nature is all, then one knows all.

If one is the nature, and the nature is all, then one is all.

Hi Jundo,

Apropos of this post (parts quoted above): is there a difference between having a glimpse of the nature once, or a few glimpses intermittently, and a full-time realization of that nature?

Am I on safe ground if I assume you mean Buddha-nature when you use the word nature here?

Related:

http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f= ... 06#p329314

[Malcolm]

...Sentient beings are not "born in Samsara," they never have been ... they just think they are.

That is sufficient for being born in samsara.

[Edit]

[jundo cohen]

If one knows the nature, and the nature is all, then one knows all.

If one is the nature, and the nature is all, then one is all.

Hi Jundo,

Apropos of this post (parts quoted above): is there a difference between having a glimpse of the nature once, or a few glimpses intermittently, and a full-time realization of that nature?

Am I on safe ground if I assume you mean Buddha-nature when you use the word nature here?

What name can truly capture this?

Need to turn to simile ...

Perhaps one might describe this as like the light of the sun, the heat felt in the bones. The deluded mind is clouded and stormy, though the light gives shape to the clouds even on the darkest and coldest day. With Practice, one can sometimes glimpse rays peaking between and right through the clouds themselves ... the clouds and light not two. Sometimes the sky is so clear and boundless, that the sun shines as a mirror and all is bright. Not a cloud in the sky.

But with years of Practice, one comes to know ... to feel the heat cooking in the bones and see right through the clouds ... that the sun is always present and shining even on the darkest day ... clear or rainy, night or day, lighting beautiful scenes and ugly battlefields, sickness and health, life and death, in the sky and reflected in the dew of every blade of grass. Seen or unseen, the sun is now always well seen and ever present.

Dogen famously wrote this of the moonlight (same difference ... sunlight or moonlight, all symbols for that which cannot be truly captured in word or symbol) ...

Enlightenment is like the moon reflected on the water. The moon does not get wet, nor is the water broken. Although its light is wide and great, the moon is reflected even in a puddle an inch wide. The whole moon and the entire sky are reflected in dewdrops on the grass, or even in one drop of water. Enlightenment does not divide you, just as the moon does not break the water. You cannot hinder enlightenment, just as a drop of water does not hinder the moon in the sky. The depth of the drop is the height of the moon. Each reflection, however long or short its duration, manifests the vastness of the dewdrop, and realizes the limitlessness of the moonlight in the sky.
http://www.thezensite.com/ZenTeachings/ ... 8.htm#tan7

Gassho, J

[Astus]

This is certainly a Mahāyāna doxographical claim. And further, what is the difference then between a bodhisattva and buddha? This distinction in the one that you really fail to tease out.

"To awaken to the incomplete truth of voidness of self and then practice is inferior-vehicle dhyana. To awaken to the true principle of the dual voidness of self and dharmas and then to practice is great vehicle dhyana. (All four of the above types show such distinctions as the four [dhyanas of the realm of] form and the four [concentrations of the] formless [realm].) If one's practice is based on having all-at-once awakened to the realization that one's own mind is from the outset pure, that the depravities have never existed, that the nature of the wisdom without outflows is from the outset complete, that this mind is buddha, that they are ultimately without difference, then it is dhyana of the highest vehicle. This type is also known by such names as tathagata-purity dhyana, the one-practice concentration, and the thusness concentration."
(Zongmi on Chan, p 103)

"There are many methods in practicing Buddhism. The Lesser Vehicle practices “eradicating afflictions.” The Great Vehicle (Mahayana) “transforms afflictions.” In the Ultimate Vehicle, “afflictions are bodhi.” Each method is centered on the mind. In the end, they all enable sentient beings to attain unsurpassed complete enlightenment.

Those who practice the Lesser Vehicle take afflictions as real; therefore, they must exterminate them. They still have the concept of subject and object; therefore, there is still attachment to the dharmas. They only realize the emptiness of self and enter into partial nirvana.

Those who practice the Great Vehicle use the method of “transformation (of the mind)” because they understand that amid our afflictions there is our inherent Buddha nature. It is like forging steel from iron. The nature of steel is within the wrought iron. If we throw away the pieces of iron, we will not be able to refine the steel. Similarly, “there is no water besides the waves.” Therefore, in Mahayana, bodhisattvas cultivate the myriad good practices of the six paramitas. By benefiting self and others, they transform afflictions, and return to their pure inherent nature. Just as when we practice charity for a long time, we will naturally diminish greed. By contemplation of compassion, anger will naturally subside. When we are diligent in the cultivation of actions, speech, and mind, we can overcome sloth. When the mind is scattered and confused, we must use samadhi to overcome delusive thoughts. This is known as “transformation.” The last of the six paramitas is “prajna.” Prajna overcomes ignorance. Our mind is filled with ignorance and confusion; it easily forms attachments to the external environment. If we can reflect inward, without falling into dualism, without the concept of subject and object, and attain “triple emptiness,” we will attain prajna paramita. We can then face each encounter with clarity and mindfulness, thereby extinguish all our afflictions.

In the Ultimate Vehicle, we neither transform our afflictions nor extinguish them; our mind is originally pure and lucid. This mind is inherent in everyone; we do not need to seek it externally. This is the Chan School’s principle of “affliction is bodhi; birth and death (samsara) is nirvana.”"
(From Bodhi Mind to Ultimate Enlightenment)

[jundo cohen]

.... And further, what is the difference then between a bodhisattva and buddha? This distinction in the one that you really fail to tease out.

There is no difference between a bodhisattva and buddha, a sage or ignorant being, me and you, mountain or star. No difference, intimate beyond intimate, one and the same.

There is great difference between a bodhisattva and buddha, a sage or ignorant being, me and you, mountain or star. Each its own, shining alone, beyond compare.

Buddha is thus, a sage knows thus, an ignorant being is ignorant of thus.

Nonetheless, ignorant or not ... There is no difference between a bodhisattva and buddha, a sage or ignorant being, me and you, mountain or star. No difference, intimate beyond intimate, one and the same.

Linji:

“Followers of the Way, as I see it we are no diff erent from Śākya. What do we lack for our manifold activities today? The six-rayed divine light never ceases to shine. See it this way, and you’ll be one who has nothing to do your whole life long.

Hee-Jin Kim explains in the middle of page 9, here ...

https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=pHF ... 22&f=false

Gassho, J

[Malcolm]

Those who practice the Great Vehicle use the method of “transformation (of the mind)” because they understand that amid our afflictions there is our inherent Buddha nature. It is like forging steel from iron. The nature of steel is within the wrought iron. If we throw away the pieces of iron, we will not be able to refine the steel. Similarly, “there is no water besides the waves.” Therefore, in Mahayana, bodhisattvas cultivate the myriad good practices of the six paramitas. By benefiting self and others, they transform afflictions, and return to their pure inherent nature. Just as when we practice charity for a long time, we will naturally diminish greed. By contemplation of compassion, anger will naturally subside. When we are diligent in the cultivation of actions, speech, and mind, we can overcome sloth. When the mind is scattered and confused, we must use samadhi to overcome delusive thoughts. This is known as “transformation.” The last of the six paramitas is “prajna.” Prajna overcomes ignorance. Our mind is filled with ignorance and confusion; it easily forms attachments to the external environment. If we can reflect inward, without falling into dualism, without the concept of subject and object, and attain “triple emptiness,” we will attain prajna paramita. We can then face each encounter with clarity and mindfulness, thereby extinguish all our afflictions.

In the Ultimate Vehicle, we neither transform our afflictions nor extinguish them; our mind is originally pure and lucid. This mind is inherent in everyone; we do not need to seek it externally. This is the Chan School’s principle of “affliction is bodhi; birth and death (samsara) is nirvana.”"[/i]
(From Bodhi Mind to Ultimate Enlightenment)

I am pretty certain I don't agree with the characterization of Mahāyāna ārya practice above.

I fail to see a distinction between this so called "great vehicle" and this so called "ultimate vehicle." For example, the Saṃdhinirmocana Sūtra states:

• The characteristic of the element of formations and the ultimate
  is the characteristic of being free from being the same or different;
  whoever conceives them as being the same or different,
  they have entered in improper view.

And the Madhyāntavibhāga states:

• These two, samsara and nirvana,
  arise adventitiously.

[DGA]

There is a distinction made in some corners of East Asian Buddhism, especially after Tendai in Japan, to distinguish between the bodhisattva-vehicle and the Buddha-vehicle based on the claim in the Lotus Sutra that all vehicles are reducible to the Buddha-vehicle. That said, I'm not familiar with positioning general Mahayana as provisional relative to Ekayana--rather, the claim is that the authoritative Mahayana is Ekayana.

This for context.

[boda]

Buddhas do not take rebirth in Samsara because there is no birth or death in Buddha. And yet, in every birth and death of humans and flowers, sun and moon, there is Buddha. All Samsara is precisely Buddha in disguise to eyes able to see, merely deluded Samsara to those who can not. To those who can see, Samsara is not Samsara, and yet it is. Sentient beings are not "born in Samsara," they never have been ... they just think they are.

I would recommend to everyone to stop debating these topics, and to get on the cushion, cross the legs, and truly be this.

It would be nice if you could be that while debating these topics and not just on the cushion.

[jundo cohen]

Buddhas do not take rebirth in Samsara because there is no birth or death in Buddha. And yet, in every birth and death of humans and flowers, sun and moon, there is Buddha. All Samsara is precisely Buddha in disguise to eyes able to see, merely deluded Samsara to those who can not. To those who can see, Samsara is not Samsara, and yet it is. Sentient beings are not "born in Samsara," they never have been ... they just think they are.

I would recommend to everyone to stop debating these topics, and to get on the cushion, cross the legs, and truly be this.

It would be nice if you could be that while debating these topics and not just on the cushion.

Debating these topics and fine distinctions of vocabulary are clouds that obscure. Sitting clears the clouds away. However, cloudy or not, the sun is still there.

The light of Enlightenment is still shining in as and through the parsing of terms and spinning of mental wheels, but one must look through all the churning thoughts of categories and distinctions. Easier to see when the mind mazes are dropped.

Anger and bile will obscure too.

Gassho, Jundo