Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Tue Feb 12, 2013 3:46 am

Last edited by Johnny Dangerous on Tue Feb 12, 2013 3:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality

Postby Wayfarer » Tue Feb 12, 2013 3:56 am

i have utmost respect for Bikkhu Bodhi, but I think that particular essay basically speaks to one of the principle differences between Theravada and Mahayana appraoches. The Abhidamma tradition was more realist and pluralist, whilst the Mahayana incorporated a more mystical kind of approach. There is a relevant essay here: , Peter Harvey.
In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities; in the expert's mind there are few ~ Suzuki-roshi

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Re: Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality

Postby monktastic » Tue Feb 12, 2013 5:31 am

This undistracted state of ordinary mind
Is the meditation.
One will understand it in due course.

--Gampopa

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Re: Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality

Postby greentara » Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:41 am

To exert yourself in religious practice, trying to produce enlightenment by doing
religious practices and zazen, is all wrong too. There's no difference between
the mind of all the buddhas and the Buddha Mind of each one of you. But by
wanting to realise enlightenment, you create a duality between the one who
realises enlightenment and what it is that's being realised. When you cherish
even the smallest desire to realise enlightenment, right away you leave the realm
of the Unborn and go against the Buddha Mind. This Buddha Mind you have from
your parents innately is one alone - not two, not three!

~ Bankei

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Matt J
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Re: Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality

Postby Matt J » Tue Feb 12, 2013 3:15 pm

It is difficult to conceive the inconceivable, so we always come up with concepts. Of course the concepts are different, but they are both a means to an end and not an end in themselves. A Zen story comes to mind:

Huineng says: "I have something which has no head or tail. It is nameless and can't be described. It has no back and no front. Do any of you know what this is?"
Shenhui then says, "It is the source of all things. It is the buddha nature of Shenhui".
Huineng responds, "I said it has no name and no name and no description. How can you say it is the source of buddha nature?"
The Great Way is not difficult
If only there is no picking or choosing
--- Xin Xin Ming


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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:37 pm

All the quotes on Ground of mind and what not though, those "sound" like Advaita the more you isolate them, the more you integrate them and qualify them with the rest of Buddhism, the more differences seem to be apparent.

Again i'm not denying the possibility they end up in the same place (maybe alot of paths do), just that in terms of method it seems different to me.
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Re: Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality

Postby Yudron » Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:45 pm

Author of Buddhist young adult fiction. Vlogger at Wisdom and Compassion: Grandma Yudron's Totally Chill Vlog on Meditation and Tibetan Wisdom Blogger at Very active on Twitter.

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Re: Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality

Postby monktastic » Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:46 pm

This undistracted state of ordinary mind
Is the meditation.
One will understand it in due course.

--Gampopa

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Re: Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality

Postby monktastic » Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:57 pm

This undistracted state of ordinary mind
Is the meditation.
One will understand it in due course.

--Gampopa

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Re: Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality

Postby Karma Dorje » Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:43 pm

"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava

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Re: Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality

Postby Wayfarer » Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:15 am

In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities; in the expert's mind there are few ~ Suzuki-roshi

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Re: Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality

Postby monktastic » Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:56 am

This undistracted state of ordinary mind
Is the meditation.
One will understand it in due course.

--Gampopa

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Re: Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality

Postby Wayfarer » Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:44 am

You can make the case that all of that kind of allegorical and descriptive language is necessary, as a concession to the limited human ability to understand the ineffable nature of Nirvana. But, on the other hand, it then can begin to turn into the kinds of 'substantialist' notions that early Buddhist teaching wished to avoid. So the case could be made that some developments in the later Mahayana actually reflected in the assimilation of non-Buddhist ideas and symbols into the Buddhist traditions. I am sure that is what some Theravada scholars would say. (What does Bikkhu Bodhi say about the Mahayana sutras? I haven't read anything but it would be interesting to know.)

It is also perhaps related to why the so-called 'Critical Buddhism' controversy arose. That book says that many of the later developments, such as 'Buddha-nature', have been smuggled into Buddhism, but are really quite different to the original teaching, which is critical rather than 'ontological'.
In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities; in the expert's mind there are few ~ Suzuki-roshi

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Re: Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality

Postby Karma Dorje » Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:19 am

"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava

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Re: Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality

Postby Wayfarer » Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:22 am

I understand the point, but I think it is easily misconstrued.
In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities; in the expert's mind there are few ~ Suzuki-roshi

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Re: Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality

Postby Simon E. » Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:35 am

And so it continues according to what has become the traditional trajectory of online discussions of this issue.
The Vedantists will continue to demonstrate to their own satisfaction that the outcomes of Buddha Dharma and Advaita Vedanta are not different.
Whereas the majority of students of Buddhadharma who have taken Refuge in an authentic lineage will continue to demur from that pov.
The main difference is , that as far as I know, Most Buddhists do not visit Advaita sites to argue their point.

:namaste:
" My heart's in the Highlands
my heart is not here.
My heart's in the Highlands
chasing the deer."

Robert V.C. Burns.

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Re: Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality

Postby Karma Dorje » Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:08 pm

"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava

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Re: Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality

Postby Simon E. » Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:34 pm

As this is a Buddhist forum it seems to me that the onus is those who hold the view that Buddhadharma and Advaita Vedanta produce identical outcomes in their respective adherents to make that case.
And I see no evidence that this has been so proven.

The header says quite clearly "A Buddhist discussion forum ...and ect ".
" My heart's in the Highlands
my heart is not here.
My heart's in the Highlands
chasing the deer."

Robert V.C. Burns.

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Re: Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality

Postby Simon E. » Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:40 pm

" My heart's in the Highlands
my heart is not here.
My heart's in the Highlands
chasing the deer."

Robert V.C. Burns.

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Re: Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality

Postby Grigoris » Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:52 pm

"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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