Pure lands & non-duality

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
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garudha
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Re: Pure lands & non-duality

Post by garudha »

PorkChop wrote: Wait, so now you've changed your mind and the 37 attributes I listed are no longer concepts?
Gotcha.
Wow, you're really something!

Like speaking to a security guard about freedom :rolling:

They're all concepts, or do you really think your list is "the truth" ?
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Re: Pure lands & non-duality

Post by Admin_PC »

garudha wrote:
PorkChop wrote: Wait, so now you've changed your mind and the 37 attributes I listed are no longer concepts?
Gotcha.
Wow, you're really something!

Like speaking to a security guard about freedom :rolling:
Just because you can't stay consistent in your arguments, doesn't mean you have to make this personal.
We've been nothing but helpful on this thread.
No need for insults.

EDITed for your late edit:
garuda wrote:They're all concepts, or do you really think your list is "the truth" ?
Now compassion's back to being a concept? EDIT: This should probably say "Now compassion's back to requiring conceptualization?"
Very hard to keep up with the vacillating.
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garudha
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Re: Pure lands & non-duality

Post by garudha »

The main question in the OP is:

(paraphrase myself)

Are (Pure lands) existing as a separate realm ?

It's not "please list all the defilements that negate a pure experience". Although your list might have merit, it's far too complicated for me to understand, but perhaps others will find value in it. No need to get angry. You posted something which stands by itself no matter if I like it, respond to it, or whatever.
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Re: Pure lands & non-duality

Post by Admin_PC »

garudha wrote:The main question in the OP is:
(paraphrase myself)
Are (Pure lands) existing as a separate realm ?
Might be important to realize that Mahayana thought falls mainly into Nagarjunian philosophy: "Existence and non-existence can not be established" (via the 4 fold negation), or Mind Only philosophy: "Only Mind is real, everything else is empty". In either case, there is no realm that exists separately from the experiencer. In the case of the Pure Lands, the adornments manifest as enlightened activity manifests (listed in the 37 attributes of enlightenment). Those attributes are universally applicable, as is the potential for Buddhahood for all sentient beings; therefore some aspects of the Pure Lands are always present.
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garudha
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Re: Pure lands & non-duality

Post by garudha »

PorkChop wrote:
garudha wrote:
PorkChop wrote: Wait, so now you've changed your mind and the 37 attributes I listed are no longer concepts?
Gotcha.
Wow, you're really something!

Like speaking to a security guard about freedom :rolling:
Just because you can't stay consistent in your arguments, doesn't mean you have to make this personal.
We've been nothing but helpful on this thread.
No need for insults.

EDITed for your late edit:
garuda wrote:They're all concepts, or do you really think your list is "the truth" ?
Now compassion's back to being a concept? EDIT: This should probably say "Now compassion's back to requiring conceptualization?"
Very hard to keep up with the vacillating.
I'm saying that Compassion if not a concept but I consider your list to be a list of concepts.

Check your list. Compassion is not on your list. You're trying to slander me but the mistake is on you.

Seems like you're trying to twist what I'm saying, that's my feeling, or can you admit to your mistake ?
Now compassion's back to being a concept?
I find it rather sad you're trying to represent me like this, considering I believe, Buddha = Compassion & Compassion = Buddha. tut tut tut.

Just represent yourself. Please don't try to put words into my mouth. Thanks.
Last edited by garudha on Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pure lands & non-duality

Post by Admin_PC »

garudha wrote:Check your list. Compassion is not on your list. You're trying to slander me and the mistake is on you. Sorry.

I'm saying that Compassion if not a concept but I consider your list to be a list of concepts.

Seems like you're trying to twist what I'm saying.
Compassion is inherent to the "skillful states" in the following 2 items:
Exertion for the arising of skillful states
Exertion for the sustaining and increasing of arisen skillful states

Compassion is also integral for Right Action, which was on the list and is also part of the 8 Fold Path:
The Buddha wrote:And how is one made pure in three ways by bodily action? There is the case where a certain person, abandoning the taking of life, abstains from the taking of life. He dwells with his... knife laid down, scrupulous, merciful, compassionate for the welfare of all living beings. Abandoning the taking of what is not given, he abstains from taking what is not given. He does not take, in the manner of a thief, things in a village or a wilderness that belong to others and have not been given by them. Abandoning sensual misconduct, he abstains from sensual misconduct. He does not get sexually involved with those who are protected by their mothers, their fathers, their brothers, their sisters, their relatives, or their Dhamma; those with husbands, those who entail punishments, or even those crowned with flowers by another man. This is how one is made pure in three ways by bodily action.
In fact, it's part and parcel of much of the 8 Fold Path - for example, it's very closely related to the "harmlessness" listed in Right Resolve (Intention).
The Buddha wrote:And what is right resolve? Being resolved on renunciation, on freedom from ill-will, on harmlessness: This is called right resolve.
EDIT just to show the connection with "harmlessness"
Vipassana.com on Right Intention wrote:The Intention of Harmlessness

The intention of harmlessness is thought guided by compassion (karuna), aroused in opposition to cruel, aggressive, and violent thoughts. Compassion supplies the complement to lovingkindness. Whereas lovingkindness has the characteristic of wishing for the happiness and welfare of others, compassion has the characteristic of wishing that others be free from suffering, a wish to be extended without limits to all living beings. Like metta, compassion arises by entering into the subjectivity of others, by sharing their interiority in a deep and total way. It springs up by considering that all beings, like ourselves, wish to be free from suffering, yet despite their wishes continue to be harassed by pain, fear, sorrow, and other forms of dukkha.
Many of the other bullets in the list are not significantly different from compassion in the sense that they are qualities that manifest through action and not concepts to be considered or rules to follow:
Equanimity
Tranquility
Mindfulness
Energy
Joy

EDIT: I'm not sure what mistake I'm being accused of making. I think the quotes speak for themselves.
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garudha
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Re: Pure lands & non-duality

Post by garudha »

PorkChop wrote:
garudha wrote:Check your list. Compassion is not on your list. You're trying to slander me and the mistake is on you. Sorry.

I'm saying that Compassion if not a concept but I consider your list to be a list of concepts.

Seems like you're trying to twist what I'm saying.
Compassion is inherent to the "skillful states" in the following 2 items:
Exertion for the arising of skillful states
Exertion for the sustaining and increasing of arisen skillful states

Compassion is also integral for Right Action, which was on the list and is also part of the 8 Fold Path:
The Buddha wrote:And how is one made pure in three ways by bodily action? There is the case where a certain person, abandoning the taking of life, abstains from the taking of life. He dwells with his... knife laid down, scrupulous, merciful, compassionate for the welfare of all living beings. Abandoning the taking of what is not given, he abstains from taking what is not given. He does not take, in the manner of a thief, things in a village or a wilderness that belong to others and have not been given by them. Abandoning sensual misconduct, he abstains from sensual misconduct. He does not get sexually involved with those who are protected by their mothers, their fathers, their brothers, their sisters, their relatives, or their Dhamma; those with husbands, those who entail punishments, or even those crowned with flowers by another man. This is how one is made pure in three ways by bodily action.
In fact, it's part and parcel of much of the 8 Fold Path - for example, it's very closely related to the "harmlessness" listed in Right Resolve (Intention).
The Buddha wrote:And what is right resolve? Being resolved on renunciation, on freedom from ill-will, on harmlessness: This is called right resolve.

Many of the other bullets in the list are not significantly different from compassion in the sense that they are qualities that manifest through action and not concepts to be considered or rules to follow:
Equanimity
Tranquility
Mindfulness
Energy
Joy
So are you saying that I'm not entitled to my belief because it doesn't fit into your doctrine ?

You're trying to build up a straw man argument and are now pulling in various others texts to support your position.

It's very simple. My definition of compassion is not dependant on anything on any list. You can argue all you like but the horse is already dead.

Flog away. Goodbye.
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garudha
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Re: Pure lands & non-duality

Post by garudha »

EDIT: I'm not sure what mistake I'm being accused of making. I think the quotes speak for themselves.

I will address it. Hold on one min.
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Re: Pure lands & non-duality

Post by Admin_PC »

garudha wrote:So are you saying that I'm not entitled to my belief because it doesn't fit into your doctrine ?
Now who's putting words into other people's mouths?
garudha wrote:You're trying to build up a straw man argument and are now pulling in various others texts to support your position.
No, I tried to explain Pure Land doctrine to relate it back to your questions, which included discussion of the 37 attributes of Enlightenment- the very adornments of the Pure Land. You laughed it off as a bunch of conceptualization that you were glad you didn't have in your life:
garudha wrote:Seems like a massive list of conceptualization. Thankfully my life is not so complicated. :cheers:
I pointed out how the 37 attributes are universal, applicable to everyone regardless of whether they're aware of the list or not. You've been very intent on asserting my "slander of you" with no proof and asserting that I'm "wrong" with no proof. I've just been trying to be helpful and answer your questions. I feel like I've been more than patient.
garudha wrote:It's very simple. My definition of compassion is not dependant on anything on any list. You can argue all you like but the horse is already dead.
This is where I get confused. One minute the attributes listed on the list are just a bunch of conceptualization that you don't have to bother with in your life and now you're saying the items on the list are not. It's hardly a dead horse, when the statements you've made are inconsistent. All I've said this entire time is that the list describes 37 attributes of enlightened activity. Nobody has to follow that list, just manifest what's on there; the same way one can follow the 8 Fold path or the 4 Brahma Viharas by merely manifesting such actions, regardless if one is even aware of the list.
garudha wrote:Flog away. Goodbye.
That's pretty uncalled for.
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garudha
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Re: Pure lands & non-duality

Post by garudha »

Sorry, we can't really communicate. For example; You use the the word "manifest" as meaning an action resulting from a samsaric identity whereas I consider manifestation to result from a single pure land as the samsaric actor manifest.

Really better we don't get any more tangled than we are already!

I'm not saying you;re wrong. It's just we're speaking different languages for all intents and purposes.

Can you accept this ?
the statements you've made are inconsistent.
My friend, my words are not inconsistent. I propose that we can't really communicate, ok ?
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Re: Pure lands & non-duality

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

When the non-dual is experienced this world is finally understood to be the Pure Land. (imo)
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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garudha
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Re: Pure lands & non-duality

Post by garudha »

smcj wrote:When the non-dual is experienced this world is finally understood to be the Pure Land. (imo)
Nice. Pure land is not separate realm. I can understand what you wrote. Thanks.
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Re: Pure lands & non-duality

Post by plwk »

When the non-dual is experienced this world is finally understood to be the Pure Land. (imo)
So until then, sugar is sweet and vinegar is sour huh...
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Re: Pure lands & non-duality

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

plwk wrote:
When the non-dual is experienced this world is finally understood to be the Pure Land. (imo)
So until then, sugar is sweet and vinegar is sour huh...
As unpopular as it is here at Dharma Wheel, I see the term non-dual to mean common essence. YMMV.

http://www.dudjomspz.org/teachings/rcop

Ultimate reality is the mandala of the perfectly pure expanse of Voidness. It is like a “magic” mirror. What unimpededly appears on it are all the things (dharmas) of relative reality, your mind included.

edit: Sounds like an undifferentiated basis to me.

These things appear naturally on this “magic” mirror, through and to your mind. There is no third reality of a truly existing mind or objects juxtaposed to the ultimate reality of the mirror and the relative reality of the images in it.

edit: So subject and object are of the same stuff=non-dual.

All phenomena of relative reality are void by nature. Deceptively they appear truly to exist, but do not really do so. Yet from Voidness various distinct appearances do arise, for instance forms. They are reflections of the “magic” mirror, Voidness, and appear distinctly as your aggregates and as the consciousness, cognitive power and objects of your mind and senses. With pure vision you experience them in a subtler manner. You regard your five aggregate faculties as the five “Dhyani” Buddhas, your five bodily elements (earth, water, fire, air and space) as the five consorts, your eight types of consciousness (foundation, defiled, mental and the five sensory) as the eight meditational Bodhisattvas and so forth. Thus your entire body and all your defilements are regarded as having a divine nature.

Relative things ordinarily appear to be concrete. This is deceptive because in actuality they lack true existence. When this confusing deception is transcended with pristine awareness, they are experienced in a wholly different, subtler manner. From the viewpoint of the unity of Voidness and appearance, everything is in fact a perfect Buddha-field—a mandala filled with deities. There is nothing there that can still be referred to as a “deceptive appearance”.


Blah blah blah. Anyway I know it isn't popular around here, so I'm not going to push it. This thread is about the Pure Land and it doesn't feel right to get into that stuff here.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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garudha
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Re: Pure lands & non-duality

Post by garudha »

smcj wrote:
plwk wrote:
When the non-dual is experienced this world is finally understood to be the Pure Land. (imo)
So until then, sugar is sweet and vinegar is sour huh...
As unpopular as it is here at Dharma Wheel, I see the term non-dual to mean common essence. YMMV.

http://www.dudjomspz.org/teachings/rcop

Ultimate reality is the mandala of the perfectly pure expanse of Voidness. It is like a “magic” mirror. What unimpededly appears on it are all the things (dharmas) of relative reality, your mind included.

edit: Sounds like an undifferentiated basis to me.

These things appear naturally on this “magic” mirror, through and to your mind. There is no third reality of a truly existing mind or objects juxtaposed to the ultimate reality of the mirror and the relative reality of the images in it.

edit: So subject and object are of the same stuff=non-dual.

All phenomena of relative reality are void by nature. Deceptively they appear truly to exist, but do not really do so. Yet from Voidness various distinct appearances do arise, for instance forms. They are reflections of the “magic” mirror, Voidness, and appear distinctly as your aggregates and as the consciousness, cognitive power and objects of your mind and senses. With pure vision you experience them in a subtler manner. You regard your five aggregate faculties as the five “Dhyani” Buddhas, your five bodily elements (earth, water, fire, air and space) as the five consorts, your eight types of consciousness (foundation, defiled, mental and the five sensory) as the eight meditational Bodhisattvas and so forth. Thus your entire body and all your defilements are regarded as having a divine nature.

Relative things ordinarily appear to be concrete. This is deceptive because in actuality they lack true existence. When this confusing deception is transcended with pristine awareness, they are experienced in a wholly different, subtler manner. From the viewpoint of the unity of Voidness and appearance, everything is in fact a perfect Buddha-field—a mandala filled with deities. There is nothing there that can still be referred to as a “deceptive appearance”.


Blah blah blah. Anyway I know it isn't popular around here, so I'm not going to push it. This thread is about the Pure Land and it doesn't feel right to get into that stuff here.
:good: Wow, that's possibly the best thing I ever read. :woohoo: Thanks and thanks to everyone who posted. :thanks: :thanks: :thanks:
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Re: Pure lands & non-duality

Post by Vajraprajnakhadga »

KeithBC wrote:
garudha wrote: You have answered the first question, thank you, and seeing as you have provided guidance on enlightenment as non-duality, would there be any specific reason(s) you didn't answer the second and third pertinent questions ?

edit: Are you saying that Pure Lands don't exist like that sandwich doesn't exist when "all is sandwich" ?
The whole point of what I was saying is that all distinctions ("this" vs. "that") are the realm of duality. The distinction between Pure Land and "impure land" is one of those distinctions. In nonduality, there is no such distinction. Whole vs. fragmented is another such nonexistent distinction.

So are credibls vs. incredible, true vs. false non-dual experience, and any other duality you care to name. Separate realms are duality. To name a distinction is to create duality. Of course there is no non-duality in the process of naming dualities.

The experience of nonduality is neither this nor that nor both this and that, nor neither this nor that.

Om mani padme hum
Keith
You seem to be describing monism not Buddhist non-dualism. Distinctions and differentiations are not a problem in Buddhism.
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