Non-celibacy

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
Admin_PC
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Re: Non-celibacy

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Lazy_eye wrote:
PorkChop wrote:Improved conditioned habits (karma) at the very least. Stream-entry to Non-returner or beginning the Bodhisattva Bhumis would not be unreasonable.
Does one have to progress a certain distance along the arahat path before beginning the bhumis? How does this work exactly? I should know this, but don't. I understand rebirth in the pure land to be analogous to the non-returmer stage.
Main requirement for traveling the bodhisattva path is cultivating bodhicitta - the aspiration for enlightenment for the sake of all beings. First bhumi is establishing the "NonBirth of Dharmas". Establishing conviction in the Pure Land path equates to non-returner stage, Pure Land birth itself means attaining a stage on the Bodhisattva path, with assurances of Buddhahood in a short number of lives (if not a short time span). That being said, there are Pure Land birth stories from all traditions of Pure Land while those people still had bodies here on earth - so go figure that one out. :)
Lazy_eye wrote:Possible to do a remembrance practice focused on a bodhisattva, for instance Guanyin?
Guanyin is great too.
Lazy_eye wrote:Yes, this is true, and one of the reasons why questions like the ones I put forward can come up. In situations where laypeople didn't have tons of time, it would be a moot point -- life circumstances would get in the way of "advanced practice."

Although I get the impression that during periods such as the T'ang and Song dynasties, and also certain eras in Japan, you did see a type of lay practitioner not too unlike what we see in the West today.
There's something to be said for making your busy, day-to-day life your practice. This is a big thing in Pure Land, Zen, and (I'm finding out) Bhante G's "Mindfulness in Plain English".
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Re: Non-celibacy

Post by Lazy_eye »

PorkChop wrote: Establishing conviction in the Pure Land path equates to non-returner stage.
So wouldn't the approach to the questions posed in the OP be the same as in most other Buddhist traditions?

After all, the non-returner stage is marked by the abandonment of sensual craving and ill-will. Would that also be true of the Pure Land cultivator who has achieved full conviction in Amitabha and rebirth in sukhavati?

I notice that in Pure Land texts such as Buddhism of Wisdom and Faith there is detailed discussion about subduing the afflictions, just as in earlier Buddhist schools. However, the paradigm does change dramatically when we get to Honen and Shinran.

Or have I misunderstood something?
There's something to be said for making your busy, day-to-day life your practice. This is a big thing in Pure Land, Zen, and (I'm finding out) Bhante G's "Mindfulness in Plain English".
Definitely agree with you there. Hardly a minute goes by without some opportunity for practice.
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Re: Non-celibacy

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Lazy_eye wrote:After all, the non-returner stage is marked by the abandonment of sensual craving and ill-will. Would that also be true of the Pure Land cultivator who has achieved full conviction in Amitabha and rebirth in sukhavati?
Not according to the Pure Land sutras; especially the Visualization Sutra and the Larger Sukhavati Sutra.
Lazy_eye wrote:However, the paradigm does change dramatically when we get to Honen and Shinran.
Actually those 2 base themselves on Shan-Tao and Shan-Tao predates any of the masters in the Buddhism of Wisdom & Compassion book, so the change is in the other direction. The Pure Land sutras are fairly clear on the issue as well, and they predate anybody else.
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Re: Non-celibacy

Post by Lazy_eye »

PorkChop wrote:
Lazy_eye wrote:After all, the non-returner stage is marked by the abandonment of sensual craving and ill-will. Would that also be true of the Pure Land cultivator who has achieved full conviction in Amitabha and rebirth in sukhavati?
Not according to the Pure Land sutras; especially the Visualization Sutra and the Larger Sukhavati Sutra.
Lazy_eye wrote:However, the paradigm does change dramatically when we get to Honen and Shinran.
Actually those 2 base themselves on Shan-Tao and Shan-Tao predates any of the masters in the Buddhism of Wisdom & Compassion book, so the change is in the other direction. The Pure Land sutras are fairly clear on the issue as well, and they predate anybody else.
I see what you mean. That Visualization Sutra is really cool -- do PL followers do visualization practices like those described in the text? I had thought reciting the name was the main practice.
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Re: Non-celibacy

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Lazy_eye wrote:I see what you mean. That Visualization Sutra is really cool -- do PL followers do visualization practices like those described in the text? I had thought reciting the name was the main practice.
Reciting the name is the main practice. It was originally "think about" (not visualize) in the 18th vow in the Larger Sukhavativyuha; but it said "recite the name" in the Pratyutpanna and "uphold the name" elsewhere, so it was changed. Reciting was considered a stronger practice than "think about" because it was an action of body, speech, and mind.

When it comes to those visualizations; we're encouraged to read the sutra- which can be kind of like a mini-visualization. I don't know many people who've been able to cultivate the visualizations clearly as a practice in themselves. When the descriptions get past the simple stuff like the sunset, I have a hard time even imagining it, let alone being able to see it (which I can't really even do with the sunset). Honen gets knocked by some modern authors as having practiced the visualization while only recommending recitation; but in his own writings (and those of his disciple Bencho) he said that the visions (nembutsu samadhi) manifested naturally as a consequence of spending 15+ hours a day reciting.
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Re: Non-celibacy

Post by Osho »

It's a shame for sure but some seem to need denial in order to get anywhere.
Others do not.
Factoring out masochism then beyond superstition or coveting celibacy there's no real call for celibacy.
However if that's what floats anyone's boat then that's what floats their boat.
It does seem slightly sad though.
:namaste:
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(Dogen).
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Re: Non-celibacy

Post by KathyLauren »

Lazy_eye wrote: Hi Keith -- I didn't frame the question in terms of monastic and laity because laypeople can also be celibate. To say that a layperson can practice doesn't necessarily answer my question, because someone could follow all the practices of a monastic without ordaining, and still be called a layperson. The Vimalakirti example is ambiguous, because the sutra says that "he was celibate, yet manifested a wife and children." How do you interpret that?
Presumably he wasn't always celibate. :)
So I really am interested in this one specific question: how do you practice a path of renunciation, designed to subdue and eventually eliminate sensual craving, while also being involved in activities that require the sustaining of sensual craving?
No activity requires craving. We have difficulty engaging in some activities without getting caught up in craving, but it is never a requirement.
The answer that I usually give myself is that one can decide to work on renunciation as appropriate to the situation: that is, it may not be appropriate for a married person to eliminate sensual craving altogether, so one could instead work on avoiding sexual misconduct (fifth precept). Or one could work on other things such as anger, lack of compassion, etc. One can apply the Buddha's medicine to whatever areas of life need it at the time.
That sounds like a good approach. :twothumbsup:

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Re: Non-celibacy

Post by 5heaps »

Lazy_eye wrote:That is my understanding as well. But it raises the practical question: if one does not wish for this result, should one meditate at all? That is, suppose one wants to retain an ability to engage and be interested in the desire realm.
then just reach perfect samadhi of the desire realm
it will make sex much much better. though you will still prefer the sheer excellence of a perfectly quiet alert mind, it will not prevent you from turning your mind to sex, and as with all activities, they will all be greatly enhanced by superhuman concentration

( superhuman concentration = baby yogi concentration :) )
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