Reaching the unconscious mind

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
User avatar
Lindama
Posts: 685
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:26 pm
Location: Forestville, CA usa

Re: Reaching the unconscious mind

Post by Lindama »

Simon E. wrote:But neither were they somehow an inevitable part of the subtle anatomy of the cottage, and of all cottages.
They had a cause, and they came to your attention and you got out your duster.

Cottages don't have a wee separate locked room at the back where cobwebs are born and lurk.

Even if Dr Cottage -Freud claims that they do, and that whats more he is the very fellow to sell you a web-buster...

The Unconscious is simply faulty learning...
Simon, that's very funny and a good walk-on line. did you intend it, or is it just me? how many times must it be said that there is no locked room, no box labeled unconscious. Precisely, they came to my attention.... I could have noticed sooner, but I can't blame Dr Cottage, web-buster sales or the locked room. It's giving up the hope for a better past.... Perhaps it's a good thing to be my own fool, rather than nobody's fool... it's a good thing to see that I didn't want to see the webs, rather than be victimized by an unknown entity which does not exist. I created it, I can respond to it. It's just so sweet if compassion is present... else, we are eaten alive in the jungle. Arriving at the present moment, it's only yours truly inside this bag of skin.... that's a kind of liberation. It's not a mystery that I have my own civil war at times. I can stand tall in feast or famine. Silly example to make a point.

As this thread progresses, I'm see some interesting eddies in the river. The insistence on uncovering unconscious process which may or may not be categorized as an entity, a thing. it occurs to me that to frame it this way is both a victimization of oneself, and a justification to not take direct responsibility for one's actions. Far better to say, I did it, I don't understand. That is honest and empowering. It does not render one helpless. It just might invite a bit of understanding too. I also see an assumption that one must be perfected before awakening. This is not true, I don't believe this is a Buddhist perspective. These issues have been examined to no avail.

The questions that are arising, the forces, the concerns are all good inquiries.... it's just that the answers are coming too soon and from the outside and from bad psychology. each person takes this on differently. I have said this better before. No more energy left tonight.

with the day I had, I'm waiting for my multiple to come to my rescue. :tongue: Have to agree that most multiple cases seem to be what you described. what do you make of reports of changes in physiology? .... OH! that's not so mysterious, body follows thought?? as soon as I typed the question, the thought followed... what would you say?
Not last night,
not this morning,
melon flowers bloomed.
~ Bassho
Simon E.
Posts: 7652
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: Reaching the unconscious mind

Post by Simon E. »

Yes it was consciously intended Linda. :thumbsup:

And yes, the body/mind split is a convention, and physiological changes follow cognitions just as frequently as cognitions are the result of physical processes.

And clearly the idea that we have to sweep the place out before the fruits of practice can appear
is like the myth of Sisyphus...we would never get there.

Another analogy is five fingers, five fleas. ( the skandhas )
There are five fleas..we have to pin each one down under a finger and thumb..
First one OK...second one OK..third one.. damn ! The first one has wriggled out.
First one OK...

It will never end that way.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Simon E.
Posts: 7652
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: Reaching the unconscious mind

Post by Simon E. »

rachmiel wrote:
Simon E. wrote:Oh I see...

Its about YOU being aware of other people's ' ignorance and unawareness '... :rolling:
Nope. But it's telling that you would think/say that.

What I'm getting at is that we are all driven, to some extent, by psychological forces beyond our awareness. It's a consequence of having a human brain and growing up in human society. Everyone gets conditioned.

So then the question becomes: What kind of attention/treatment does this conditioning -- in the form of unconscious psychological reflexes -- need to facilitate the movement towards realization?

Sorry I don't live up to your expectations..but given your sig I doubt anyone ever will...
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 21938
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Reaching the unconscious mind

Post by Grigoris »

Discussion on split brain theory split to here.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
User avatar
Rick
Posts: 2629
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:05 am

Re: Reaching the unconscious mind

Post by Rick »

Wayfarer wrote:Finding the right therapist might be quite difficult, and also expensive. Here in Australia, you can only get benefits for therapy if you've been referred by a doctor, and their list of symptoms doesn't usually include 'existential angst' unless it is manifesting as a definite disorder, i.e. eating disorder, compulsive behaviours, and so on.
It *is* difficult to find the right therapist when you are also doing dharma stuff. You need someone who understands the big picture, how psychotherapy, which deals with self, can play fruitfully with dharma practice, which deals with not-self. These kinds of therapists are few and far between. Most therapists are covered by insurance here in the US of A, but my guy is not, even though he's well respected in the community.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...
User avatar
Rick
Posts: 2629
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:05 am

Re: Reaching the unconscious mind

Post by Rick »

Lindama wrote:As this thread progresses, I'm see some interesting eddies in the river. The insistence on uncovering unconscious process which may or may not be categorized as an entity, a thing. it occurs to me that to frame it this way is both a victimization of oneself, and a justification to not take direct responsibility for one's actions.
It certainly can be. It can also be an exploration of an important aspect of becoming free of suffering.
I also see an assumption that one must be perfected before awakening. This is not true, I don't believe this is a Buddhist perspective.
Perfection is a fairy tale. Attending to unconscious reflexes of mind that push you away from actuality is not.

But it's an interesting question: How "clear" does the mind -- conscious and unconscious thoughts/feelings/understanding -- have to be to awaken?
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...
User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 21938
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Reaching the unconscious mind

Post by Grigoris »

rachmiel wrote:It *is* difficult to find the right therapist when you are also doing dharma stuff. You need someone who understands the big picture, how psychotherapy, which deals with self, can play fruitfully with dharma practice, which deals with not-self. These kinds of therapists are few and far between. Most therapists are covered by insurance here in the US of A, but my guy is not, even though he's well respected in the community.
My (unsolicited :smile: ) personal opinion as a registered psychologist and pseudo-Buddhist is that psychotherapy and Buddhist practice don't really mix well/complement each other. It's kind of like pressing the accelerator and brake at the same time.

That's just my personal opinion.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 17137
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: Reaching the unconscious mind

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

For those interested, i'm almost done reading this, checked it out on someone else's recommendation (thanks Supermaxv!):

http://www.amazon.com/The-Psychology-Of ... 1559392630" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's pretty interesting, and deals a lot with Buddhist vs. western psychology influenced/Jungian views of 'the unconscious'. I don't know where I stand with all of it, but it's a decent read. The Tantra stuff is extremely 'basic' info in many ways, but his critiques and explanations of western views of the subconscious mind, and their consequences are interesting.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
User avatar
Rick
Posts: 2629
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:05 am

Re: Reaching the unconscious mind

Post by Rick »

Sherab Dorje wrote:
rachmiel wrote:It *is* difficult to find the right therapist when you are also doing dharma stuff. You need someone who understands the big picture, how psychotherapy, which deals with self, can play fruitfully with dharma practice, which deals with not-self. These kinds of therapists are few and far between. Most therapists are covered by insurance here in the US of A, but my guy is not, even though he's well respected in the community.
My (unsolicited :smile: ) personal opinion as a registered psychologist and pseudo-Buddhist is that psychotherapy and Buddhist practice don't really mix well/complement each other. It's kind of like pressing the accelerator and brake at the same time.

That's just my personal opinion.
Is a pseudo-Buddhist like a recovering Catholic? ;-)

Are you a practicing psychologist? Therapist? If so, what approach do you use ... if you don't mind my asking?
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...
User avatar
Lindama
Posts: 685
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:26 pm
Location: Forestville, CA usa

Re: Reaching the unconscious mind

Post by Lindama »

Feed those Demons!

Feeding Your Demons: The Life and Work of Lama Tsultrim Allione, from the Dutch Buddhist Broadcasting Foundation. Video:

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=16546
Not last night,
not this morning,
melon flowers bloomed.
~ Bassho
MalaBeads
Posts: 803
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:47 am

Re: Reaching the unconscious mind

Post by MalaBeads »

rachmiel wrote:
MalaBeads wrote:
rachmiel wrote: I wonder if there is a practice whose main goal is to illuminate the hidden parts of the mind? Psychoanalysis does this, in theory in any case.
Only in theory. It may expose the story (maybe) but it doesn't get rid of buying into 'a' story in the first place. To me, psychoanalysis just promotes a story line. That really solves nothing.
Understood. Psychotherapy works with the psyche = the self/ego/I construct = a story created and perpetuated by conditioning and the ignorant mind. It seems like a step away from, rather than towards realization. BUT ... like it or not most of us have plump active sneaky egos. It might well be necessary to come to understand our ego stories sufficiently to not be held hostage by them.

What say you, MalaBeads?
I say if you want/need to use a model of the unconscious and psychotherapy in your own journey to realization, then go for it, Rachmiel.

I am so very happy with own teacher who I feel has given me all the tools and insights I need at the moment to proceed.

After reading this thread, it becomes clear how each person is an individual with an individual view of "how things are" and how they need to be in order to proceed.

A few people here have given hints about how to proceed with only the Dharma, moment by moment. My thoughts are this is all you really need. If you really understand about practicing the dharma, this is sufficient. Moment by moment. You will be given everything you need to unravel your "unconscious"/your subtle mind/etc. etc. And I think the Dharma always honors your capacity. (In other words, sometimes what appears is coarse, sometimes it is subtle).

Anyway way, that all i have to say.

Cheers, and as someone here sometimes says, hope this helps.
I am well aware of my idiocy. I am also very aware that you too are an idiot. Therein lies our mutuality.
User avatar
Rick
Posts: 2629
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:05 am

Re: Reaching the unconscious mind

Post by Rick »

MalaBeads wrote:After reading this thread, it becomes clear how each person is an individual with an individual view of "how things are" and how they need to be in order to proceed.
Ja. Work with what you've got, with what manifests for/in you, not with a set of "rules" etched in stone by someone else. That's why I could never become an "ist" of any kind. Only I know what's cookin' inside me ... though I do get a little help from my friends. :-)
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...
LionelTeo
Posts: 27
Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 7:12 am

Re: Reaching the unconscious mind

Post by LionelTeo »

Good evening to you Rachmiel,

Pardon me for not following the discussions, but your topic interest me.

What you are talking about the unconscious mind is perhaps referring to be the same as the subconscious mind? For an example, a person would not throw litters, not because he obey the law, he just feels uneasy doing so and did not have a reason.

The example given is a work of the subconscious mind.

The subconscious feeds on constant thoughts and thus resulted in the character that we perceived ourselves.

With some googling, you can find various topics regarding subconscious mind training with mediation.

Coming from this aspect, therefore, its important for us to understand about the words we read before our mediation, reading and understanding text such as the eight verse of mind transformation and taking refuge by heart would help greatly aid in meditation.

Eventually, your speech will become more gentle and slower and much more graceful then before.

Hopefully this information would be of a help to you.
User avatar
Rick
Posts: 2629
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:05 am

Re: Reaching the unconscious mind

Post by Rick »

Thanks, LionelTeo. :-)

This makes sense: The right intention can reach the subconscious mind and deliver the right message to it.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...
dimeo
Posts: 85
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2013 6:31 pm

Re: Reaching the unconscious mind

Post by dimeo »

I like the way you put it Rachmiel. People often talk about the 'gut' instinct and this is also related. Its not just the brain but the whole body that is part of one's being. Meditation connects us deeper into the belly and breath. Read about the vagus nerve and how that is related to emotional well being. The gut apparently has so many neurons its almost like a 'second brain'. Interesting stuff!
Post Reply

Return to “Dharma in Everyday Life”