why is Vajrayana considered the fastest way to buddhahood?

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
Malcolm
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Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by Malcolm »

smcj wrote:
Ahem, in order to avoid a different kind of shit storm we say "Mainstream Buddhism" around here instead.
I thought we were supposed to use "Shravakayana". I know HHDL just differentiates between Pali and Sanskrit texts.

In any case we do try no avoid pejoratives.
Nah, that is also considered pejorative. They want to be Mainstream Buddhism, because in point of fact there were never that many Mahāyāna Buddhists in India anyway.
Natan
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Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by Natan »

About that Hina thing: Choegyal Namkhai Norbu gives a good reason this terminology is ok. He says small and large vehicle is because of the number of beings one tries to carry along. In Hina, one does not try to carry along every being. In Maha, one does that. It really shouldn't be a bone of contention.
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Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Crazywisdom wrote:About that Hina thing: Choegyal Namkhai Norbu gives a good reason this terminology is ok. He says small and large vehicle is because of the number of beings one tries to carry along. In Hina, one does not try to carry along every being. In Maha, one does that. It really shouldn't be a bone of contention.
Go over to Dhamma Wheel and try to say that.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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dharmagoat
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Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by dharmagoat »

Crazywisdom wrote:About that Hina thing: Choegyal Namkhai Norbu gives a good reason this terminology is ok. He says small and large vehicle is because of the number of beings one tries to carry along. In Hina, one does not try to carry along every being. In Maha, one does that. It really shouldn't be a bone of contention.
The Sanskrit term 'hina' means more than just 'small'. It also means 'low', 'inferior', 'wretched', 'despicable', etc.

It is not surprising that Theravadins object.

Edit: added 'despicable'. (Thanks PorkChop)
Last edited by dharmagoat on Sat May 24, 2014 2:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by Admin_PC »

Crazywisdom wrote:About that Hina thing: Choegyal Namkhai Norbu gives a good reason this terminology is ok. He says small and large vehicle is because of the number of beings one tries to carry along. In Hina, one does not try to carry along every being. In Maha, one does that. It really shouldn't be a bone of contention.
I think small would've been "Cula" as in the "Cula Sunnata Sutta". "Hina" has connotations of "that which is to be renounced" or "that which is to be despised". I always kind of wondered if it could've been spun in such away as to say "the path that only values renunciation (of the world)", but I don't think that flies either in terms of translation, nor of doctrine. Probably best not to use it. In fact, I think mere use of the term "Mahayana" tends to set Mainstream Buddhists on edge. "Awakening of Faith in the Mahayana" seems to correlate "Maha" with the great capacity of all sentient beings for achieving Enlightenment as opposed to being a "higher path"; but they only see the term as triumphalist. Unfortunately, "Bodhisattvayana" and any of the other options never quite caught on.
Natan
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Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by Natan »

smcj wrote:
Crazywisdom wrote:About that Hina thing: Choegyal Namkhai Norbu gives a good reason this terminology is ok. He says small and large vehicle is because of the number of beings one tries to carry along. In Hina, one does not try to carry along every being. In Maha, one does that. It really shouldn't be a bone of contention.
Go over to Dhamma Wheel and try to say that.
I'd rather not. I am a Mahayanist. My dharma friends are too. I hold Theravada masters in high esteem. I've never heard any say they want all beings to attain buddhahood. They want nibbana. I understand it's a touchy term, I think, mostly for Westerners, who are a tiny contingent.
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Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by Natan »

dharmagoat wrote:
Crazywisdom wrote:About that Hina thing: Choegyal Namkhai Norbu gives a good reason this terminology is ok. He says small and large vehicle is because of the number of beings one tries to carry along. In Hina, one does not try to carry along every being. In Maha, one does that. It really shouldn't be a bone of contention.
The Sanskrit term 'hina' means more than just 'small'. It also means 'low', 'inferior', 'wretched', 'despicable', etc.

It is not surprising that Theravadins object.

Edit: added 'despicable'. (Thanks PorkChop)
Maybe for the newly converted Westerner. In traditional Buddhist communities, no one bats an eye. The Theravada are proud of their Pali texts. They don't care about all those Mahayanists.

Choegyal Namkhai Norbu explains why "inferior" is the correct term, actually. They practice to attain nibbana themselves. Maha refers to a path that includes all beings, attaining not just nibbana, but perfect, complete, precious, buddhahood, as the prayers say. It's kind of a crazy goal. It's a big BIG goal to think no one is enlightened until every single one, without exception is.

So Hinayana is the smaller goal. Mahayana is the biggest goal of all. There is really no disputing it. I'm sure someone can take the term the wrong way, obviously. I suppose diplomacy is recommended, as Malcolm said. But Mahyana is a family business. What's said in the family is not necessarily meant to be heard by outsiders. We have good reason to disparage the smaller goal. Our methods are such that they are hindered by such a smaller goal. That smaller goal disparages our ideal of bodhichitta.

This is who we are and what we believe is best for us.
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.
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Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

What's said in the family is not necessarily meant to be heard by outsiders. We have good reason to disparage the smaller goal. Our methods are such that they are hindered by such a smaller goal. That smaller goal disparages our ideal of bodhichitta.

This is who we are and what we believe is best for us.
Yes, we like having our very own sandbox. :tongue:
Thank you Mr. Snyder
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
plwk
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Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by plwk »

:coffee: So, frank123, what hast thou learned thus far? I had to ask...just being me...
Malcolm
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Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by Malcolm »

Crazywisdom wrote:We have good reason to disparage the smaller goal.
Actually, disparaging the other yanas is a violation of our samaya.
Natan
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Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by Natan »

Malcolm wrote:
Crazywisdom wrote:We have good reason to disparage the smaller goal.
Actually, disparaging the other yanas is a violation of our samaya.
Disparaging is too strong a word. I admit. The Mahayana sutras do disparage poor Shariputra, I'm afraid. Vajrayana is a species of Mahayana.
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.
Malcolm
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Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by Malcolm »

Crazywisdom wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Crazywisdom wrote:We have good reason to disparage the smaller goal.
Actually, disparaging the other yanas is a violation of our samaya.
Disparaging is too strong a word. I admit. The Mahayana sutras do disparage poor Shariputra, I'm afraid. Vajrayana is a species of Mahayana.
As the samaya of the Amitabha family states:
  • "I will uphold the sublime Dharma,
    the outer, inner and secret yānas".
Therefore, if we Vajrayānists criticize or berate other yānas, we break our samaya -- not in the sense of a root downfall, no, but in the sense that we are not honoring our commitment to the Padma family which is related to the teachings.

M
Natan
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Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by Natan »

Malcolm wrote:
Crazywisdom wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Actually, disparaging the other yanas is a violation of our samaya.
Disparaging is too strong a word. I admit. The Mahayana sutras do disparage poor Shariputra, I'm afraid. Vajrayana is a species of Mahayana.
As the samaya of the Amitabha family states:
  • "I will uphold the sublime Dharma,
    the outer, inner and secret yānas".
Therefore, if we Vajrayānists criticize or berate other yānas, we break our samaya -- not in the sense of a root downfall, no, but in the sense that we are not honoring our commitment to the Padma family which is related to the teachings.

M
So what do we make of how Buddha treated poor Shariputra in the Mahayana sutras?
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.
Malcolm
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Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by Malcolm »

Crazywisdom wrote: So what do we make of how Buddha treated poor Shariputra in the Mahayana sutras?
Buddha, in Mahāyāna sutras, was acting out of his infinite and omniscient compassion. Not only that, while Śariputra may seem like a foil against which many unkind tricks were played, Śariputra in fact is a very high bodhisattva on the stages, a player in the drama of the Mahāyāna sutras.

I think that until I am at that level, I will refrain from criticizing the other vehicles.

Of course, when we openly discuss the fact that Vajrayāna promises the ideal practitioner full buddhahood replete with the two accumulations in a single life, it is natural that others might feel criticized or that we are making "triumphalist claims", but we are not. There isn't even one single Mainstream sutra or Mahāyāna sūtra that suggests that full buddhahood can be attained in a single life, so what need to mention the complete absence of the methods of doing so? Moreover, the Mainstream Sūtras do not detail the path of the bodhisattva, so people who wish the embark on the career of a bodhisattva must learn that from Mahāyāna sūtras. The Mainstream sūtra teachings have one goal primarily, to guide people to the four fruits of the śravakas path.

M
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Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by LastLegend »

Chan patriarch Hui Neng said the true seeker of Path does not see faults in others but always sees his own.
It’s eye blinking.
Motova
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Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by Motova »

LastLegend wrote:Chan patriarch Hui Neng said the true seeker of Path does not see faults in others but always sees his own.
This is my biggest problem, currently trying to fix it.

My mind is totally afflicted; very ignorant; very attached; and, very angry. I find when I look, I am actively trying to look for faults. It's like it's always on, even when I don't want it to be. It causes a lot of suffering. I feel very disgusted.

So now, I try to see every sentient being as my mother. I just turn them into her. I try not to say, "This is or they are (insert this type of animal, ethnicity, or judgment of education level, attractiveness, age, societal level, blah blah blah)." I try to be like, "Here is Mom, there is Mom, there goes Mom and her shenanigans, etc etc." It helps me remain mindful of my mind and catch myself when garbage starts to bubble up. It also helps remind me of impermanence, karma, suffering, precious rebirth, Refuge and Bodhicitta. Finally instead of looking to judge, I find it helps me to look to help.
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Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by Grigoris »

Personal attacks removed.

Please stay on topic and refrain from making personal attacks.

Thank you.
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Malcolm
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Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by Malcolm »

Needless to say, for those who have no faith in Vajrayāna, Vajrayāna is not a vehicle at all, much less the fastest one.
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Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by theanarchist »

smcj wrote:
Crazywisdom wrote:About that Hina thing: Choegyal Namkhai Norbu gives a good reason this terminology is ok. He says small and large vehicle is because of the number of beings one tries to carry along. In Hina, one does not try to carry along every being. In Maha, one does that. It really shouldn't be a bone of contention.
Go over to Dhamma Wheel and try to say that.

Why should they be offended? In Theravada leading all other beings to liberation is indeed not on the program.
Malcolm
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Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by Malcolm »

theanarchist wrote:[
Why should they be offended? In Theravada leading all other beings to liberation is indeed not on the program.
Yes, as is the case with all the so-called Mainstream schools.
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