Supreme Nirmankaya

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
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reddust
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Supreme Nirmankaya

Post by reddust »

Malcolm said:
In Mahāyāna, and especially Vajrayāna, it is considered possible for there to be more than one nirmanakāya during a given Buddha's dispensation. However, it is only possible for there to be one supreme Nirmanakāya during any given dispensation in any given world system.
Why is it not possible for there to be two Supreme Nirmanakaya when the Dharma is still being taught? Is it because a Buddha has no ignorance, aversion and craving so there is nothing to see?

I will check in later this evening and I know this question may not have an answer but the question keeps coming up for me so I figure someone may have something to say about this. The garden's are full of weeds that need to be pulled and composted before I start planting my seedlings. :jedi:
Mind and mental events are concepts, mere postulations within the three realms of samsara Longchenpa .... A link to my Garden, Art and Foodie blog Scratch Living
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LastLegend
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Re: Supreme Nirmankaya

Post by LastLegend »

Where Buddha isn't present?
It’s eye blinking.
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reddust
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Re: Supreme Nirmankaya

Post by reddust »

LastLegend wrote:Where Buddha isn't present?
Puts her slipper on her head. :tongue:
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Norwegian
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Re: Supreme Nirmankaya

Post by Norwegian »

"A supreme nirmanakaya (Skt. uttamanirmāṇakāya; Wyl. mchog gi sprul sku) is a buddha who takes birth into the world, displays the twelve deeds of a buddha, and passes into parinirvana at the end of his life. Buddha Kashyapa, Buddha Shakyamuni and the Six Munis are examples of supreme nirmanakaya buddhas."

"The twelve deeds (Skt. dvadaśabuddhakārya; Wyl. mdzad pa bcu gnyis) carried out by a supreme nirmanakaya buddha, such as the Buddha Shakyamuni, are:

1. the descent from Tushita, the Joyous pure land (dga' ldan gyi gnas nas 'pho ba),
2. entering the mother’s womb (lhums su zhugs pa),
3. taking birth[1] (sku bltams pa),
4. becoming skilled in various arts (bzo yi gnas la mkhas pa),
5. delighting in the company of royal consorts (btsun mo'i 'khor dgyes rol ba),
6. developing renunciation and becoming ordained (rab tu byung ba),
7. practicing austerities for six years (dka' ba spyad pa),
8. proceeding to the foot of the bodhi tree (byang chub snying por gshegs pa),
9. overcoming Mara’s hosts (bdud btul ba),
10. becoming fully enlightened (mngon par rdzogs par sangs rgyas pa),
11. turning the wheel of Dharma (chos kyi 'khor lo bskor ba), and
12. passing into mahaparinirvana [2] (mya ngan las 'das pa)"
santa100
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Re: Supreme Nirmankaya

Post by santa100 »

Ven. Bodhi's great article that explains in details about Buddhas, Arahants, and Bodhisattvas here. There he mentioned part of the "identity" of a Fully Enlightened Buddha (SammaSambuddha) was the re-discovery of the long-forgotten Dharma. This is one of the distinct trademarks unique to the lineage of SammaSambuddhas as described in the "Ancient City" sutta:
SN 12.65 wrote:"It is just as if a man, traveling along a wilderness track, were to see an ancient path, an ancient road, traveled by people of former times. He would follow it. Following it, he would see an ancient city, an ancient capital inhabited by people of former times, complete with parks, groves, & ponds, walled, delightful. He would go to address the king or the king's minister, saying, 'Sire, you should know that while traveling along a wilderness track I saw an ancient path... I followed it... I saw an ancient city, an ancient capital... complete with parks, groves, & ponds, walled, delightful. Sire, rebuild that city!' The king or king's minister would rebuild the city, so that at a later date the city would become powerful, rich, & well-populated, fully grown & prosperous.

"In the same way I saw an ancient path, an ancient road, traveled by the Rightly Self-awakened Ones of former times. And what is that ancient path, that ancient road, traveled by the Rightly Self-awakened Ones of former times? Just this noble eightfold path: right view, right aspiration, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. That is the ancient path, the ancient road, traveled by the Rightly Self-awakened Ones of former times. I followed that path. Following it, I came to direct knowledge of aging & death, direct knowledge of the origination of aging & death, direct knowledge of the cessation of aging & death, direct knowledge of the path leading to the cessation of aging & death. I followed that path. Following it, I came to direct knowledge of birth... becoming... clinging... craving... feeling... contact... the six sense media... name-&-form... consciousness, direct knowledge of the origination of consciousness, direct knowledge of the cessation of consciousness, direct knowledge of the path leading to the cessation of consciousness. I followed that path.
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reddust
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Re: Supreme Nirmankaya

Post by reddust »

santa100 wrote: I followed that path. Following it, I came to direct knowledge of birth... becoming... clinging... craving... feeling... contact... the six sense media... name-&-form... consciousness, direct knowledge of the origination of consciousness, direct knowledge of the cessation of consciousness, direct knowledge of the path leading to the cessation of consciousness. I followed that path.
Thank you for this quote! I've always wondered what the cessation of consciousness meant. I've heard all the arguments, especially about the folks that are in a comma, they are obviously not a Buddha. Does this mean Buddha no longer grasps at consciousness as me and mine?

Back to can a Buddha see another Buddha? Why can we only have one Supreme Buddha at a time? I remember reading that Buddha can see future Buddhas, the Bodhisattva/Bodhisatta. Depending on the system Bodhisatta has to get the go ahead from the Supreme Buddha at the beginning of his path to become Supreme Buddha. As a Bodhisattva certain Bhumis have to be crossed and the Supreme Buddha gives the okay.... I guess I will have to become a Buddha to figure this out.
Mind and mental events are concepts, mere postulations within the three realms of samsara Longchenpa .... A link to my Garden, Art and Foodie blog Scratch Living
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reddust
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Re: Supreme Nirmankaya

Post by reddust »

Norwegian wrote:"A supreme nirmanakaya (Skt. uttamanirmāṇakāya; Wyl. mchog gi sprul sku) is a buddha who takes birth into the world, displays the twelve deeds of a buddha, and passes into parinirvana at the end of his life. Buddha Kashyapa, Buddha Shakyamuni and the Six Munis are examples of supreme nirmanakaya buddhas."
Thank you :namaste:
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santa100
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Re: Supreme Nirmankaya

Post by santa100 »

reddust wrote:Thank you for this quote! I've always wondered what the cessation of consciousness meant. I've heard all the arguments, especially about the folks that are in a comma, they are obviously not a Buddha. Does this mean Buddha no longer grasps at consciousness as me and mine?
Notice the "cessation of consciousness" in SN 12.65 was in the context of the 12 links of Dependent Origination, in which consciousness is the rebirth consciousness, a vital link to the continuation of new bodies in subsequent lives. The Buddha has shattered the links, and thus no longer subjected to any new bodies in subsequent lives. That has nothing to do with the regular senses' consciousness that the Buddha still possess to carry out His daily activities. Also please read Ven. Bodhi's article if you have times. It'll clarify a lot of things for you.
reddust wrote:Back to can a Buddha see another Buddha? Why can we only have one Supreme Buddha at a time? I remember reading that Buddha can see future Buddhas, the Bodhisattva/Bodhisatta. Depending on the system Bodhisatta has to get the go ahead from the Supreme Buddha at the beginning of his path to become Supreme Buddha. As a Bodhisattva certain Bhumis have to be crossed and the Supreme Buddha gives the okay.... I guess I will have to become a Buddha to figure this out.
As mentioned, if the identity of a SammaSambuddha includes the re-discovery of the lost Dharma, then while the Dispensation is still around, this function cannot be fulfilled, thus the impossibility of 2 Buddhas in the same world-system (reference from another thread here). Buddhas are Buddhas, and Bodhisattvas are Bodhisattavas, there's no confusion here. Right now, the Bodhisatta Metteyya is carrying out His Bodhisattvic duties in the Tushita Heaven until one day He'll come back to earth to fulfill the role of a future Buddha and continue the lineage of the SammaSambuddhas.
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reddust
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Re: Supreme Nirmankaya

Post by reddust »

Santa100 you explained this perfectly. My confusion has cleared up, thank you :hi:
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Re: Supreme Nirmankaya

Post by plwk »

It is impossible that two Rightfully Enlightened Ones should be born in the same world element at one and same time.
It is possible that a single Rightfully Enlightened One should be born in the world element at one time.

Bahudhatuka Sutta

The Buddha said to Ananda, "In the distant past -- innumerable, incalculable and inconceivable kalpas ago -- a Tathagata named Dipankara appeared in the world. Having taught and freed innumerable beings and led them all along the path of Enlightenment, he passed into Nirvana.
Next appeared a Tathagata named Far-reaching Light. After him came Moonlight, and then Sandalwood-Incense, King of Beautiful Mountains, Crown of Mount Sumeru, Brilliant like Mount Sumeru, Color of the Moon, Right Recollection, Free of Defilement, Non-attachment, Dragon-deva, Nocturnal Light, Peaceful and Brilliant Peak, Immovable Ground, Exquisite Beryl Flower, Golden Beryl Luster, Gold-treasury, Flaming Light, Fiery Origin, Earth-shaking, Image of the Moon, Sound of the Sun, Flower of Freedom, Glorious Light, Miraculous Power of the Ocean of Enlightenment, Water Light, Great Fragrance, Free of Dust and Defilement, Abandoning Enmity, Flame of Jewels, Beautiful Peak, Heroic Stance, Merit-possessing Wisdom, Outshining the Sun and the Moon, Beryl Light of the Sun and the Moon, Supreme Beryl Light, Highest Peak, Flower of Enlightenment, Brightness of the Moon, Sunlight, King of the Colors of Flowers, Moonlight on the Water, Dispelling the Darkness of Ignorance, Practice of Removing Hindrances, Pure Faith, Storage of Good, Majestic Glory, Wisdom of the Dharma, Call of the Phoenix, Roar of the Lion, Voice of the Dragon and Dwelling-in-the-world. All these Buddhas have already passed into Nirvana.

The Larger Amitayus Sutra
Notice how each of the Fifty Three Tathagatas are described as appearing in a sequence of one at a time after another...

See also:
The Questions of King Milinda (Menander): Chapter 13: The Solving of Dilemmas (VI): 52. Two Buddhas Cannot Exist Together
Emeritus Professor Dr Paul Williams in Mahayana Buddhism: The Doctrinal Foundations: The Cults of Buddhas & Bodhisattvas, Pg 215 cites the Mahasamghika's Lokottaravada Mahavastu (which is also used in the Mahayana world) on the related topic.
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reddust
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Re: Supreme Nirmankaya

Post by reddust »

OMG! thank you so much plwk! More then answers my question, except----can one Supreme Buddha see another Supreme Buddha if they ever met ? I remember reading somewhere here on this site that only sentient beings can see a Buddha because of their delusional state. So a Buddha isn't delusional --- but I guess the question is moot because of the law there is only one Supreme Buddha that manifest when the Dharma fades from this world. Maybe the world would explode if they did meet or maybe they couldn't see each other? Just kidding :tongue:

Thank you everyone :heart:
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plwk
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Re: Supreme Nirmankaya

Post by plwk »

...can one Supreme Buddha see another Supreme Buddha if they ever met ?
Yes, reddust, in various Sutras and its descriptions, one can read on it. They can also 'spot' each other from worlds away from each other with Their abilities.
For instance, in the Threefold Sukhavati Sutras, Amitabha Buddha manifests countless expedient forms of Himself (He may not have even 'left' Sukhavati per se) to all over the Tenfold Directions' Lands for the sake of all sentient beings and can even be experienced from our Saha World system (by those with purified vision via Samadhi and other means) but in no way does it contradict anything about the one Conqueror/Dispensation per system thingy. Just like if you have a bunch of CEOs visiting a company for a say a conference or field trip or just a tele-conferencing call, surely that company's CEO isn't going to feel threatened about his portfolio nor his authority nor his tenure as company CEO but would just note and welcome that there are his equals present in the company for a visit. That's how I would see it.
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reddust
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Re: Supreme Nirmankaya

Post by reddust »

plwk wrote:...can one Supreme Buddha see another Supreme Buddha if they ever met ?
Yes, reddust, in various Sutras and its descriptions, one can read on it. They can also 'spot' each other from worlds away from each other with Their abilities.
For instance, in the Threefold Sukhavati Sutras, Amitabha Buddha manifests countless expedient forms of Himself (He may not have even 'left' Sukhavati per se) to all over the Tenfold Directions' Lands for the sake of all sentient beings and can even be experienced from our Saha World system (by those with purified vision via Samadhi and other means) but in no way does it contradict anything about the one Conqueror/Dispensation per system thingy. Just like if you have a bunch of CEOs visiting a company for a say a conference or field trip or just a tele-conferencing call, surely that company's CEO isn't going to feel threatened about his portfolio nor his authority nor his tenure as company CEO but would just note and welcome that there are his equals present in the company for a visit. That's how I would see it.
I can see a conference through their mental powers going on right now....what to do with humans on earth? Calling all Bodhisattvas/bodhisattas , we need some loving kindness and wisdom ASAP!

Plwk...You know I have a vivid image type imagination, you explained it perfectly for my mindset. :thumbsup:
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Malcolm
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Re: Supreme Nirmankaya

Post by Malcolm »

reddust wrote:Malcolm said:
In Mahāyāna, and especially Vajrayāna, it is considered possible for there to be more than one nirmanakāya during a given Buddha's dispensation. However, it is only possible for there to be one supreme Nirmanakāya during any given dispensation in any given world system.
Why is it not possible for there to be two Supreme Nirmanakaya when the Dharma is still being taught? Is it because a Buddha has no ignorance, aversion and craving so there is nothing to see?
It is because only one Buddha at a time may demonstrate the deeds of discovering the path, and so on. However, this does not preclude others from reaching the same level of realization the Buddha himself attained.
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reddust
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Re: Supreme Nirmankaya

Post by reddust »

Malcolm thank you for helping me remember all my old lessons :heart: They are new again :twothumbsup:
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Re: Supreme Nirmankaya

Post by Natan »

I believe it has to do with the vast spans of time between dispensations, and that once a dispensation dies out, there are no Buddhas around.
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