Lamas and twofold emptiness

[zenman]

I came to think about this matter when reading peoples posts in the Dogen: arhathood or buddhahood-thread. As I understand in the vajrayana trad one becomes lama after the 3 year retreat and studies concerned with it. Correct?

My question is what are the requirements for lamas/teachers when it comes to the level of realisation? Onefold emptiness? Twofold? Something else?

[Grigoris]

I came to think about this matter when reading peoples posts in the Dogen: arhathood or buddhahood-thread. As I understand in the vajrayana trad one becomes lama after the 3 year retreat and studies concerned with it. Correct?

Depends on the tradition. I have a friend completing their fourth three-year retreat, they are a vow-holding monk, and they do not have the title "lama".

For example: Just because one is a brilliant scientist, doesn't mean they are also a science teacher.

On the other hand there are teachers (lama), without formal qualifications, whose capacity to teach has been recognised by a high level teacher.

My question is what are the requirements for lamas/teachers when it comes to the level of realisation? Onefold emptiness? Twofold? Something else?

Out of interest: is there like a formal test in the Zen milieu for levels of realisation? Not understanding, but realisation.

[Dan74]

Out of interest: is there like a formal test in the Zen milieu for levels of realisation? Not understanding, but realisation.

A closest thing to a formal test, from what I know, is an interview with the master practiced in Rinzai (dokusan) where a student may present his/her understanding of a koan and receive approval. Koan curriculum was created and standardised by Hakuin where there are koans of different levels (hence different levels of realization). Of course a system like this is very prone to abuse and even cheating, blind leading the blind, getting titles, etc.

Traditionally dialogues, ie verbal and non-verbal exchanges was where realisation was shown and recognised.

[zenman]

I came to think about this matter when reading peoples posts in the Dogen: arhathood or buddhahood-thread. As I understand in the vajrayana trad one becomes lama after the 3 year retreat and studies concerned with it. Correct?

Depends on the tradition. I have a friend completing their fourth three-year retreat, they are a vow-holding monk, and they do not have the title "lama".

For example: Just because one is a brilliant scientist, doesn't mean they are also a science teacher.

On the other hand there are teachers (lama), without formal qualifications, whose capacity to teach has been recognised by a high level teacher.

My question is what are the requirements for lamas/teachers when it comes to the level of realisation? Onefold emptiness? Twofold? Something else?

Out of interest: is there like a formal test in the Zen milieu for levels of realisation? Not understanding, but realisation.

Despite of the nick I'm not actually a zennist But I suppose in the Rinzai Zen school passing ones first koan is the same as an insight into the firstfold emptiness. I belive it is some sort of a standard they have. I have no idea what they do with the rest of the hundreds of koans though they are somehow related to various aspects.

[conebeckham]

In my experience, in the Kagyu and Nyingma lineages, being "Lama" doesn't necessarily mean one has completed a 3 year retreat, though that is common. "Lama" means "Guru," and it's a title bestowed, or an authorization given, by one's teacher. In Vajrayana, the Guru-disciple relationship is the means by which a teacher determines whether the student is a "Lama." I know some who have not completed a three year retreat program, who are Lamas, and I know some who have completed such a program who are not.

It is the duty of the teacher to determine if the student is suitable to teach. In Vajrayana, there's no "formal" ceremony or process, though there are "enthronements" and "Authorizations" (and, in fact, in many HYT empowermenets, there is the "Vajra Master Abhisheka" too)....in the end, the Guru tells the student he is a Lama.

Being knowledgable in the rituals, processes, methods, texts, etc., is usually a criteria, but even that is not absolute. Hopefully, there is some experience of Mind's Nature, or the Natural State, or whatnot...and I think most Lamas are committed to practice as an essential activity. Teaching is a certain skill-set; there are great yogis who do not have that skill-set, though their mere presence may inspire.

[zenman]

Yes, okay. All those matters concerning teachership, training, knowledge, character of being a teachr are important. But now I am asking about their level of insight. Any knowledge on this?

[Grigoris]

Well, there are officially structured debates in some schools, but that is more a display of knowledge (I guess knowledge is a type of insight).

Certain practices have physical signs that can be observed: phowa and tummo beings two examples. The signs show a level of realisation of the specific practices.

But a general insight/realisation test? Haven't heard of anything like that before.

[conebeckham]

Yes, okay. All those matters concerning teachership, training, knowledge, character of being a teachr are important. But now I am asking about their level of insight. Any knowledge on this?

I'm with Greg.

Perhaps we need an "Insight-o-Meter" to measure them, before giving them a Lama Hat?

I kid, but only partially. A person's level of insight can only be ascertained by a fully enlightened one, a Samyaksambuddha. Or do you disagree?

[zenman]

Well, there are officially structured debates in some schools, but that is more a display of knowledge (I guess knowledge is a type of insight).

Certain practices have physical signs that can be observed: phowa and tummo beings two examples. The signs show a level of realisation of the specific practices.

But a general insight/realisation test? Haven't heard of anything like that before.

Sure. View and insight can be two different things or ideally the same thing.

Physical signs, sure. When there is a hole in the fontanelle, phowa, done. When there is a horn in the forehead, you've gone astray

Yes, okay. All those matters concerning teachership, training, knowledge, character of being a teachr are important. But now I am asking about their level of insight. Any knowledge on this?

I'm with Greg.

Perhaps we need an "Insight-o-Meter" to measure them, before giving them a Lama Hat?

I kid, but only partially. A person's level of insight can only be ascertained by a fully enlightened one, a Samyaksambuddha. Or do you disagree?

What is the insight-o-meter (that's a good one) any teachers use? It is the careful examination of the student's composition. By looking at the student's body, his composition, his eyes, feeling his energy, the teacher can discern (based on his own bodymind condition) what is the state of the student.

I do disagree with Conebeckham that only the fully enlightened one could recognise if there has been any sort of insight. This is not the case. I base my view on the fact that, for example, in various meetings and internet forums (mere) stream-enterers (firstfold emptiness) have guided many others to the same state. Liberation Unleashed (LU) is a fine example of this. I don't think that that method is very deep if you compare it with any buddhist system but they do do amazing job in waking people up. they have a forum, check it out, if not familiar. By referring to various meeting, I point to thr so called direct pointing satsangs, where they do the same as in LU-forum, the teacher/guide and students present in the same room. Surely, folks less than "fully enlightened buddhas" can recognise and verify an authentic awakening (first emptiness) like this.

The second emptiness is a bit trickier because it is quite a task to get done. I am not familiar with the vajrayana-scene, it's practitioners or teachers through personal contact, so I do not know how often the adepts of this trad attain this. This is one of the reasons I'm interested.

To me it seems sort of a grey area when it comes to public discussion about what actually happens in the making of the second emptiness and what takes place when it is reached. I would love to hear clear and honest explanations of this. What I've seen in many internet articles is not-detailed. In case someone knows where to find such explanation, please share the link.

And by the way, referring to conebeckham's message. It is always of course so that a person who hasn't realised the first, can not explain to others what it is. And if he has realised merely the first, he can not really say what it is like when the second is reached. And so on.

[Grigoris]

This is not the case. I base my view on the fact that, for example, in various meetings and internet forums (mere) stream-enterers (firstfold emptiness) have guided many others to the same state. Liberation Unleashed (LU) is a fine example of this. I don't think that that method is very deep if you compare it with any buddhist system but they do do amazing job in waking people up. they have a forum, check it out, if not familiar. By referring to various meeting, I point to thr so called direct pointing satsangs, where they do the same as in LU-forum, the teacher/guide and students present in the same room. Surely, folks less than "fully enlightened buddhas" can recognise and verify an authentic awakening (first emptiness) like this.

From the website:

Elena is co-founder of Liberation Unleashed and co-author of the acclaimed book “Gateless Gatecrashers”.

In 2010 Elena woke up to the reality of “no self”. Since then she has been helping others to awaken and see the truth of no self.

[conebeckham]

What is the insight-o-meter (that's a good one) any teachers use? It is the careful examination of the student's composition. By looking at the student's body, his composition, his eyes, feeling his energy, the teacher can discern (based on his own bodymind condition) what is the state of the student.

I do disagree with Conebeckham that only the fully enlightened one could recognise if there has been any sort of insight. This is not the case. I base my view on the fact that, for example, in various meetings and internet forums (mere) stream-enterers (firstfold emptiness) have guided many others to the same state. Liberation Unleashed (LU) is a fine example of this. I don't think that that method is very deep if you compare it with any buddhist system but they do do amazing job in waking people up. they have a forum, check it out, if not familiar. By referring to various meeting, I point to thr so called direct pointing satsangs, where they do the same as in LU-forum, the teacher/guide and students present in the same room. Surely, folks less than "fully enlightened buddhas" can recognise and verify an authentic awakening (first emptiness) like this.

The second emptiness is a bit trickier because it is quite a task to get done. I am not familiar with the vajrayana-scene, it's practitioners or teachers through personal contact, so I do not know how often the adepts of this trad attain this. This is one of the reasons I'm interested.

To me it seems sort of a grey area when it comes to public discussion about what actually happens in the making of the second emptiness and what takes place when it is reached. I would love to hear clear and honest explanations of this. What I've seen in many internet articles is not-detailed. In case someone knows where to find such explanation, please share the link.

And by the way, referring to conebeckham's message. It is always of course so that a person who hasn't realised the first, can not explain to others what it is. And if he has realised merely the first, he can not really say what it is like when the second is reached. And so on.

Actually, in Vajrayana, "Insight" is nothing that special. I would say it is equivalent to the recognition of one's nature, initially after a "Pointing Out Instruction" or in practice, and subsequently in the ability to rest in that understanding. Still, one can mimic the words, and even the behavior, of a person who has this recognition, to a degree. This is incidentally why traditionally many Dzogchen and Mahamudra texts were "restricted," to protect us from ourselves, IMO. In Vajrayana, we are more concerned with "stability." A teacher or experienced practitioner may be able to ascertain the stability of a student, I guess....but emptiness/awareness, the Dharmakaya, is known as the "Benefit for self" for a reason....the Form Kayas may be appreciated by those on the path, but appearances can be deceptive.