A really....kind of stupid question. Several, Actually.

[Redfaery]

I am going to the Dharma Center tomorrow, and I hope to be able to corner a Sangha member and ask him some questions about taking Refuge, because I think I've struggled with my commitment to Buddhism enough. But I want to know one basic thing: what is the difference between a layman's vows and taking refuge? From what I've read here, taking Refuge seems to be the Buddhist equivalent of a baptism or, if you're Catholic like I was, Confirmation.

So can someone clear up my confusions? I know that taking Refuge literally refers to just that: taking refuge in the three jewels. But do the vows entail anything other than that? Is it the same as taking layman's precepts? I'm kind of confused, but I know this is an important and necessary step. So if you wonderful people could help me out...

[DGA]

Not a stupid question. It's a good one.

I rejoice in your intention to take refuge. It's an important aspect of practice, something to reflect on again and again throughout your life and not just a ritual to go through once. So I'm glad you're going for it.

That said, I encourage you to visit this Dharma center at least one, and preferably more than one Dharma center in your area if you can, before making a commitment to any one of them.

Which center are you looking to?

[DGA]

Usually, when one takes refuge as a layperson, one takes the five lay precepts. What these precepts mean and how they are practice varies a bit from tradition to tradition.

[Redfaery]

The five precepts. Yes. That makes sense. But not the other, monastic precepts? I mean, I try to follow the precepts as best I can, as sort of a guide to rightful conduct. Like...I don't even squash bugs unless they act aggressive. (and we have these things called camel crickets here in NC that are...AGGRESSIVE BUGS. And they leave nasty bites. But I still prefer to let my cats eat them rather than actively squishing them myself)

https://kadampa-center.org/ This is the Dharma center. It's not very far from where I live. It's Gelugpa.

I'd honestly prefer to take Tendai vows in Japan. I feel like that would be the absolute perfect fulfillment for the karma that has led me to Buddhism. However, it will honestly be a couple of years before my Japanese is good enough to think of such a step. More to the point, I don't think I could just walk into a Tendai temple in Japan - no matter how good my Japanese - and request to take Refuge.

I'm intent on taking refuge because I feel like I actually have a karmic tie from a past life. I lived in Tibet and was sent away to become a nun when I wasn't really willing to take that step. I feel like taking Refuge in the Gelugpa tradition would be a sort of conclusion to that chain of karmic events, because I feel like now I am tied to Japan and Tendai. I'm not sure how to explain how I "know" any of the details.

I only uncovered my past life because of...well, I went to a woman who called herself a "shaman." Not really for help. I just wanted to see if she had anything to teach me (spoiler alert: no). She did energy work and a "soul retrieval," and I believe she actually did have some sort of power over energy, as well as awareness of other realms. She told me of my past life, only her version was decidedly fluffy and New-Age. I was a "healer" from a mountain village in Asia who had been sent away reluctantly and fearfully to help someone in another village.

Well....that's what she saw. As I've mentioned before, I am guarded by Sarasvati. After all this, (in fact, no sooner than me walking to the car to leave) she quietly began correcting the lady. The mountain village was in Tibet. I was not a "healer," but I was marked out as different and talented. I wasn't sent away to help "another village." I was sent away to be ordained as a nun.

So I feel I have a karmic tie to Buddhism that runs very deep. To me, this explains why as a child, when I prayed to the Christian G-d, he didn't simply ignore my prayers - he ignored me. I prayed to him, and felt empty. In a bad way. Empty as in filled with a hollow, black nothing. YHWH didn't just overlook me. He gave me the silent treatment.

Ok...bit of a ramble. Sorry.

[kirtu]

But not the other, monastic precepts?

No, the monastic precepts are taken when a person decides to become a monak or a nun.

Taking refuge means you are dedicating yourself to follow the Buddha, his teachings and beings who have at least attained the first bhumi and are able to guide you in your practice (the Arya/Noble Sangha). This is a vow of personal liberation. Technically you might only take one vow but almost always the five vows or actually trainings are given. You follow these at a minimum in order to stop committing and accumulating negative deeds and their consequences and to consciously perfrom good deads.

Like...I don't even squash bugs unless they act aggressive. (and we have these things called camel crickets here in NC that are...AGGRESSIVE BUGS.

I don't remember these but it would be best, if possible, to capture them and release them outside. The first refuge vow is the vow to stop killing. This includes bugs too. Then if you protect their lives and release them you have committed an act of great merit and you then can dedicate that to the enlightenment of yourself and all beings in order to free all beings from samsara.

Some people think cats accrue bad karma because of their disposition to kill (actually they have to be taught by their mothers how to kill). It would be better for them to not kill as well.

https://kadampa-center.org/ This is the Dharma center. It's not very far from where I live. It's Gelugpa.

I've heard very good things about this center and planned to visit myself. Unfortunately I have not yet been able to visit. It's a FPMT (Foundation for the Preservation of the Mahayana Tradition) affiliated center isn't it?

I'd honestly prefer to take Tendai vows in Japan.

Jikan is an official Tendai teacher here in the US. So maybe taking refuge from a Tendai teacher here is possible.

Kirt

[Redfaery]

I don't remember these but it would be best, if possible, to capture them and release them outside. The first refuge vow is the vow to stop killing. This includes bugs too. Then if you protect their lives and release them you have committed an act of great merit and you then can dedicate that to the enlightenment of yourself and all beings in order to free all beings from samsara.

Some people think cats accrue bad karma because of their disposition to kill (actually they have to be taught by their mothers how to kill). It would be better for them to not kill as well.

I honestly don't kill even bugs intentionally. It's just that if I find a spider crawling up my leg in the bathtub, or have one of those nasty camel crickets start jumping at me, it's just an unconscious reaction. If I could keep my head about me, I'd definitely set them loose outside.

I also don't mean to let my cats kill bugs. I usually don't find out it's happened until I see the corpse on the carpet. I've taken a couple of big, fat millipedes away from them though. They're indoor cats, so they don't get a chance to kill anything but bugs....and, well...that one time a baby snake got in. It was fortunate that a.) I arrived home when I did. And b.) That I am not afraid of snakes at all. I scooped it up in a lidded pot and released it in the woods behind the complex.

I have a question about cats killing though: in many rural areas and also historically, cats were necessary to control the populations of rodents that would both eat stored grain and also carry diseases such as plague. I always felt that since cats helped preserve the health of their human keepers by hunting and thus prevented great sufferings of plague and famine, overall, their hunting would not necessarily accrue them bad karma?

[DGA]

https://kadampa-center.org/ This is the Dharma center. It's not very far from where I live. It's Gelugpa.

Sure, they're fine. FPMT has a good program. And they'll be able to give you more detailed information regarding how to sanely manage those bugs!

[Mkoll]

I honestly don't kill even bugs intentionally. It's just that if I find a spider crawling up my leg in the bathtub, or have one of those nasty camel crickets start jumping at me, it's just an unconscious reaction. If I could keep my head about me, I'd definitely set them loose outside.

If you keep practicing not giving into the physical reflex to squash when it arises, it will get easier and will become just a mental reflex. And even that starts to fade away, in my experience. Just do your best. I wouldn't categorize it as an "unconscious reaction" because that just gives your mind carte blanche to keep on doing what it's doing; it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Practicing loving-kindness and compassion toward the insects that you notice also helps. We're all in the same boat (samsara).

[Redfaery]

I'm happy to say that I haven't killed a bug in a while. Not even a fruit fly. One landed on my arm and I was about to go SMASH but then went...HOLD ON and just brushed it off.

[DGA]

...HOLD ON and just brushed it off.

Excellent! That's mindfulness right there. Keep going with that...

keep going...

[Mkoll]

...HOLD ON and just brushed it off.

Excellent! That's mindfulness right there. Keep going with that...

keep going...

[KathyLauren]

Taking refuge is a recognition that the Three Jewels are the only true refuges from suffering. The formal ceremony is a public confirmation of this recognition in front of witnesses. To the extent that it is a vow, the vow is to respect and honour the Three Jewels, and not to seek refuge from suffering elsewhere.

The Five Precepts are vows to uphold certain beneficial conduct, and not to engage in the converse detrimental conduct.

Om mani padme hum
Keith