Seeking clarification on delusion, self and desire (long po

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
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Rianthe
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Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2014 1:58 am

Seeking clarification on delusion, self and desire (long po

Post by Rianthe »

Hello all, I haven't posted here before, but in my practice and reading
I've come up with some questions that I would like to seek other's opinions all.
I'd also like to state at the outset that I don't consider myself a
"full-blown Buddhist" and would say instead that I have a very keen interest in
Buddhism and related practice. However since reading up more I don't think I
am as clueless as when I first started. :)

Recently I've been doing a lot of soul-searching as to what I want to do with
my life and some issues have come up that I would like a Buddhist perspective on.
Of course there are books and the Internet but forums are also a tool I would
like to utilize. If I am misinterpreting anything or am trying to "figure it out"
too much (a bad habit of mind that creeps up on my unconsciously sometimes)
I apologize in advance and seek your kind understanding. I've also included some
links so you can see where I am coming from.

On the nature of desire -

I was reading this :

http://buddhism.about.com/od/basicbuddh ... /greed.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's quite a basic article but I think that it appears to sum things up
quite well, mainly that it is not the things that are the problem, nor is wanting
the problem, but attachment that is the problem. (if I understand it correctly)

How does this apply to secular/worldly life though? Is it ok to want to make lots
of money? (without being attached to it) How about the desire for enjoyment, or
the desire to listen to nice music? Are these ok as long as one does not crave them
or attach to them?

I have read other readings which say that the reason why the Buddha said not to
hanker after music, entertainment etc is that they might lead you away from the
path and into the realm of sensual pleasure, where craving lies. That is why
monks do not watch movies, play board games etc.

Although I can readily believe that is true, is it not possible that
music/entertainment/relationships can also lead to greater understanding and
enlightenment when one is not attached to them? After all, if you live in the
secular world, I do not think it is possible to cut yourself off from all
such things.

http://www.lamayeshe.com/index.php?sect ... &chid=1411" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/buddhism/bt_2c3.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

These would seem to suggest that the only way to become truly happy is to give up
all worldly acquisitions and activities. To be completely honest, I'm not sure
this is for me! Firstly it seems rather drastic. (I know that I don't need to do all
at once though)

But for the present I am still living in, and thinking in a worldly way. As in,
I would like to make more money (in an ethical way of course) I would like to eat nice
food, I would like to take vacations etc. Is there anything wrong with this? Can one
do all these things without falling victim to craving? Or does even doing things of this
nature open oneself to craving and temptation?

I used to think that Buddhism meant that you accepted everything and did not try to
better or worsen your situation - as in, if you worked in a job you did not like you
would just accept it, if you had a nice drink you would not want more. But now I'm not
so sure and I'd like to know more.

I realize that this is going to be a rather long post so I'll split it up into two parts.
Rianthe
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2014 1:58 am

Re: Seeking clarification on delusion, self and desire (long

Post by Rianthe »

What is delusion exactly? -

When I was younger and more into rational philosophy (Hegel, Kant etc) I believed that
there was no one true reality and that everything was subjective. Now I'm not so sure.
I still think that our perception colors reality (I like cake, you don't) but at the same
time I'm now conscious of a reality that remains the same and is not dependent on
individual factors - I guess that would how I currently understand dependent origination.

So from this I ask - what is delusion exactly? I understand that delusion in the Buddhist
content is not understanding the true nature of the world and reality and instead clinging
to false perceptions, not psychological delusion like schizophrenia (although the two
might be related) Is this what is known as Avidya?

In one article, the writer talks about the how a dying soldier in war can
be seen as a stranger to him, an enemy to the person who shot him and a son to the weeping
mother. As I understand it, to be rid of delusion is to know that no one reality can
encompass the entirety of that person (or any person for that matter) But at the same time,
isn't there is the awareness that that particularly reality is true for that person?
For example, it is appropriate that as the stranger he responds with kindness, as the mother
she responds with sorrow, and the enemy responds by shooting (as sad as that may be)

The self -

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... self2.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

From this and other readings I understand that the Buddha did not really answer any question of
self or no-self because he felt that it did not pertain to the ending of all suffering and
indeed might lead one astray.

Right now the idea of there not being a self or no-self is a bit too hard for my mind to
grasp - I think that it is still clinging to the idea that there must be a definite self or
not-self and isn't too happy about an in-between, or that there isn't an idea of such a
thing in the first place! But I've decided not to pursue it too heavily for now lest I
become bogged down by rationality (which I stated at the outset is sometimes a problem for me)

However, I also read this :

Dogen wrote in Genjokoan --

To study the Buddha Way is to study the self.
/To study the self is to forget the self.
/To forget the self is to be enlightened by the 10,000 things.

"Once we thoroughly investigate self, self is forgotten. However, I am told, this
doesn't mean that the person you are disappears when enlightenment is realized. The
difference, as I understand it, is that we no longer perceive the world
through a self-referential filter."

That was very helpful to where I am now - that I (whoever "I" is) can still be
alive and walking around in this world of ours (whoever "ours" is) but that we don't
need to presupposed a definite "self" that goes around claiming things are "mine" or
"not mine" I guess it helps not be "selfish" in the common sense of the word -
that you try not to see things from a "does it help me or hurt me" ego-centric
perspective.

Maybe it relates to what I was asking about delusion earlier? There is a "self"
that perceives the soldier, the mother and the enemy, and that "self" changes its
perspective whether it is the stranger, the mother or the enemy, but ultimately
that too is subjective, so there is no true concrete "self" (just thinking out
loud here)

Alright I think that's about it, at least for now! If you're still here, thanks for
reading that huge wall of text. I try my best to understand the teachings from
the Internet and books, but in the absence of a teacher (there are few English
speaking ones in my area) I admit to being confused on more than one occasion.
Good thing there are the forums. :)

Edited out a NKT link.
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Paul
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Re: Seeking clarification on delusion, self and desire (long

Post by Paul »

You should look for detailed information on the twelve lins of dependent originaton - they cover your questions quite comprehensively. I will look for some references later when I get access to my computer.
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell
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lorem
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Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 10:27 pm
Location: Fresno, California

Re: Seeking clarification on delusion, self and desire (long

Post by lorem »

Music have a couple ideas on. Tilopa said it was attachment that was the problem.

Out in "the world"--open to the music--as in be aware. If you hear music then just bring it into your field of perception. There is aversion and attraction and neutrality. Music with lyrics sometimes is a little more difficult. But yeah you are not going to escape music at stores, sometimes work, etc.

Awareness, awareness, awareness.

I actually don't listen to music much anymore. Monks of Drepung, podcasts, or NPR.

I use music as a tool to communicate with. Also as a way to induce diff. conscious states (That you do have to be careful with because can go into trance like states esp if you drink alcohol.)

Hope that was helpful, maybe other people have other ideas but awareness and non attachment are key.
I should be meditating.
muni
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Re: Seeking clarification on delusion, self and desire (long

Post by muni »

Although I can readily believe that is true, is it not possible that
music/entertainment/relationships can also lead to greater understanding and
enlightenment when one is not attached to them? After all, if you live in the
secular world, I do not think it is possible to cut yourself off from all
such things.
It all depend whether mind realizes on the moment that music is not same - not different than mind.
Just like clapping your hands. That is also explained as self-not self.

Or with a snoring one; the more mind give attention (grasping) the more mind get disturbed. ( use ear plugs :smile: )
As soon as mind/thought get lost into the music or the snoring then mindfulness/awareness is clouded and attachment/aversion arises.
DGA
Former staff member
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Re: Seeking clarification on delusion, self and desire (long

Post by DGA »

Hi Rianthe,

You might be surprised--there may well be some capable, English-language-competent teachers in your area that aren't known online. Where are you located, generally speaking? Many users here at DW know of teachers and temples in unexpected places, and may be able to help you out there.
Rianthe
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2014 1:58 am

Re: Seeking clarification on delusion, self and desire (long

Post by Rianthe »

Hi, thanks for the replies. I have read up on the Nidanas and Puttamansa Sutta: A Son's Flesh, which have proved instructive, but I still have questions.

Is attention the same as grasping/clinging? From what I understand from my reading, you can be mindfully paying attention to washing the dishes, walking and going to work without becoming too attached to what is happening or what you are doing.

Well I live in Singapore (though I am currently in Australia visiting my relatives there) which has excellent Buddhist resources, but typically in Chinese (my Chinese is not too good)
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lorem
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Location: Fresno, California

Re: Seeking clarification on delusion, self and desire (long

Post by lorem »

you need to find English speaking teacher but hope this helps:

The things we cling to
I should be meditating.
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Paul
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Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2010 8:12 pm

Re: Seeking clarification on delusion, self and desire (long

Post by Paul »

Rianthe wrote:Is attention the same as grasping/clinging? From what I understand from my reading, you can be mindfully paying attention to washing the dishes, walking and going to work without becoming too attached to what is happening or what you are doing.
No. We classify things we experience into good, bad and neutral. We don't really care about neutral things so do not cling to them. There is, however, still an automatic reification of subject, object and the interaction due to ignorance.
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell
Rianthe
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2014 1:58 am

Re: Seeking clarification on delusion, self and desire (long

Post by Rianthe »

Well after reading the link it's clearer to me now - even the act of conceptualizing things as "washing" or "me" or "dishes" is clinging/attachment? So we need to go further than that?

I think a teacher would be very helpful at this point actually...intellectually I can comprehend it but my mind still insists it is "me" that is writing at this computer right now. I guess it's good to at least clear up the first part though! Gotta walk before you can run etc etc etc
DGA
Former staff member
Posts: 9466
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm

Re: Seeking clarification on delusion, self and desire (long

Post by DGA »

Hi Rianthe,

Dzogchen Community is primarily an English-language situation. Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche teaches in English, the books are in English, and so on. Many DharmaWheel members are also involved in Dzogchen Community, and may be able to give you some guidance too.

Local DC group in Singapore:

http://dzogchen.sg/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Rianthe
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Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2014 1:58 am

Re: Seeking clarification on delusion, self and desire (long

Post by Rianthe »

Thanks for the link! I shall be sure to check it out.

What is the normal protocol in situations like these though? I don't think I can just waltz in the door and say "I have some questions on the Dharma that I would like to ask" Or can you do that? My involvement in formal Buddhist practice has so far been limited to one meditation session which I enjoyed but had to stop going to because of other time commitments.

From what I see they have lots of courses - should I start there?
DGA
Former staff member
Posts: 9466
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm

Re: Seeking clarification on delusion, self and desire (long

Post by DGA »

Sure--or even send an email first. Something like this: "Hello, I'm interested in Dzogchen practice but I'm very new to this. Where should I start? How can I get involved?"

You might also post the same question in the Dzogchen sub-forum here at DharmaWheel.
ovi
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Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2014 3:06 pm

Re: Seeking clarification on delusion, self and desire (long

Post by ovi »

Rianthe wrote:
It's quite a basic article but I think that it appears to sum things up
quite well, mainly that it is not the things that are the problem, nor is wanting
the problem, but attachment that is the problem. (if I understand it correctly)

How does this apply to secular/worldly life though? Is it ok to want to make lots
of money? (without being attached to it) How about the desire for enjoyment, or
the desire to listen to nice music? Are these ok as long as one does not crave them
or attach to them?
Rianthe wrote: These would seem to suggest that the only way to become truly happy is to give up
all worldly acquisitions and activities. To be completely honest, I'm not sure
this is for me! Firstly it seems rather drastic. (I know that I don't need to do all
at once though)

But for the present I am still living in, and thinking in a worldly way. As in,
I would like to make more money (in an ethical way of course) I would like to eat nice
food, I would like to take vacations etc. Is there anything wrong with this? Can one
do all these things without falling victim to craving? Or does even doing things of this
nature open oneself to craving and temptation?
According to lam rim chen mo, there are four error that impede you from taking full advantage of your life (e.g. delusion). Conceiving:
- the impure to be pure
- the impermanent to be permanent
- suffering to be happiness
- the selfless to have a self
In this case it is conceiving suffering to be happiness that brings much injury. It is seeing worldly things as pleasurable by nature and the means to achieve happiness, when they are only suffering. As it is explained in The Noble Eightfold PathThe Way to the End of Suffering by Bhikkhu Bodhi
When desire is scrutinized closely, we find that it is constantly shadowed by dukkha. Sometimes dukkha appears as pain or irritation; often it lies low as a constant strain of discontent. But the two — desire and dukkha — are inseparable concomitants. We can confirm this for ourselves by considering the whole cycle of desire. At the moment desire springs up it creates in us a sense of lack, the pain of want. To end this pain we struggle to fulfill the desire. If our effort fails, we experience frustration, disappointment, sometimes despair. But even the pleasure of success is not unqualified. We worry that we might lose the ground we have gained. We feel driven to secure our position, to safeguard our territory, to gain more, to rise higher, to establish tighter controls. The demands of desire seem endless, and each desire demands the eternal: it wants the things we get to last forever. But all the objects of desire are impermanent. Whether it be wealth, power, position, or other persons, separation is inevitable, and the pain that accompanies separation is proportional to the force of attachment: strong attachment brings much suffering; little attachment brings little suffering; no attachment brings no suffering.[18]

Contemplating the dukkha inherent in desire is one way to incline the mind to renunciation. Another way is to contemplate directly the benefits flowing from renunciation. To move from desire to renunciation is not, as might be imagined, to move from happiness to grief, from abundance to destitution. It is to pass from gross, entangling pleasures to an exalted happiness and peace, from a condition of servitude to one of self-mastery. Desire ultimately breeds fear and sorrow, but renunciation gives fearlessness and joy. It promotes the accomplishment of all three stages of the threefold training: it purifies conduct, aids concentration, and nourishes the seed of wisdom. The entire course of practice from start to finish can in fact be seen as an evolving process of renunciation culminating in Nibbana as the ultimate stage of relinquishment, "the relinquishing of all foundations of existence" (sabb'upadhipatinissagga).
Basically, your peace and happiness should be unconditioned. Since you no longer seek them in material things, you will no longer be attached to them. You can make more money, but you will no longer see them as the means to happiness.
Rianthe wrote: I have read other readings which say that the reason why the Buddha said not to
hanker after music, entertainment etc is that they might lead you away from the
path and into the realm of sensual pleasure, where craving lies. That is why
monks do not watch movies, play board games etc.

Although I can readily believe that is true, is it not possible that
music/entertainment/relationships can also lead to greater understanding and
enlightenment when one is not attached to them? After all, if you live in the
secular world, I do not think it is possible to cut yourself off from all
such things.
It depends on the purpose. Time-consuming entertainment are a distraction from achieving peace and happiness. I do however listen to psychedelic music all the time, including at work, it helps me focus.
Rianthe wrote: In one article, the writer talks about the how a dying soldier in war can
be seen as a stranger to him, an enemy to the person who shot him and a son to the weeping
mother. As I understand it, to be rid of delusion is to know that no one reality can
encompass the entirety of that person (or any person for that matter) But at the same time,
isn't there is the awareness that that particularly reality is true for that person?
For example, it is appropriate that as the stranger he responds with kindness, as the mother
she responds with sorrow, and the enemy responds by shooting (as sad as that may be)
The bodhisattva way is to achieve compassion and impartiality towards all beings. Hope this helps.
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