Which school of Buddhism should I choose for myself?

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
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Ambrosius80
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Which school of Buddhism should I choose for myself?

Post by Ambrosius80 »

I have studied many Buddhist sutras, tantras, rituals and schools/traditions for about a year now. Still, even though I knows the basics of nearly every school, I am indecisive as to which one would suit me best.

I live in Finland, and there are no good centers/teachers here, with the exception of one Nyingma-tradition Rinpoche and a Soto-zen monk. I have visited their centers, but their Sanghas are very small and mostly comprised of weird new-age- types who mix Buddhism with Tarot, crystal therapy and Wicca- type nonsense. They ridicule traditional Buddhism, and I just can't feel at home there. At this point, I plan on practicing a few years by myself until I am finally able to move abroad and find myself a decent Sangha. I have heard some Buddhist teachers use Skype, and could possibly guide me over the internet. This is an option I have also considered.

What can I tell about myself as a person to help you recommend the best-suited school for me?
I value complexity over simplicity.

I am rather calm and tranquil. Some would call me a perfectionist.

I am spiritual, and genuinely believe in the Six Realms, rebirth and Karma.

I would prefer a practice that is versatile (as in Tendai for example, whose practice includes nianfo, zazen, ko'an study, mantras and mudras.)

I am rather intellectual, and like to study things and form my own theories. I like trying to interpret sutras.

I value faith.

I value prayer and rituals. They help give me determination and calmness.

I think that Buddhism is compatible with modern science, and I value science's discoveries as well as Buddha's teachings.

I like to learn foreign languages. I have no reservations about studying in languages other than English.

While I do believe monastics can practice more easily and more deeply, I also firmly believe laypeople can reach enlightenment as well (like Layman Pang).

I believe different people can be taught differently depending on their abilities/qualities. I don't believe that there are any superior or inferior Buddhist schools, and that each school just uses different means to reach the same goal.
"What we have now is the best. He who can never be satisfied is a poor man, no matter how much he owns.

What you have results from karmic causes that you created, and what you'll gain hinges on karmic causes that you're creating."
-Master Sheng Yen
Sherlock
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Re: Which school of Buddhism should I choose for myself?

Post by Sherlock »

If the Nyingma centre has a rinpoche there go to him directly, don't care about what cocneptual nets the others wrap themselves in.
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Which school of Buddhism should I choose for myself?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

You should go practice with people who make you uncomfortable, within reason. Especially if the teacher is good, it's worth putting up with. Additionally, every sangha will have people you don't like more than likely..you have to decide whether it's a genuine problem, or whether you are just letting your own biases take you down the easiest (less productive) roads. No offense, but it sounds like the latter to me, a big list of things about yourself that your future teacher/sangha must conform with is a questionable way to find a sangha to practice with.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
philji
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Re: Which school of Buddhism should I choose for myself?

Post by philji »

Ambrosius80.. There is also a kagyu centre Palpung Changchub Dargye Ling which has small centres or groups in Helsinki and Oulu. They are connected to Sherabling, a large monastery in India. Lama Rabsang visits. A few times a year.
Alternatively, try an online course such as Tara Triple Excellence on Dharma sun website, which may suit you. Traditional and very thorough.. You can sample it for free.
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Ambrosius80
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Re: Which school of Buddhism should I choose for myself?

Post by Ambrosius80 »

Johnny Dangerous wrote:You should go practice with people who make you uncomfortable, within reason. Especially if the teacher is good, it's worth putting up with. Additionally, every sangha will have people you don't like more than likely..you have to decide whether it's a genuine problem, or whether you are just letting your own biases take you down the easiest (less productive) roads. No offense, but it sounds like the latter to me, a big list of things about yourself that your future teacher/sangha must conform with is a questionable way to find a sangha to practice with.
I agree with your first sentence. I have gone to both places regularly for four months now, even though I live approximately four hours away from the capital so it is not easy for me to visit either Sangha. I can put up with people who make me feel uncomfortable. What I cannot put up are people who do not study Dharma at all, ridicule core Buddhist teachings like reincarnation or mix and match new age spiritualism with Buddhism. Most of the people in the zen center use zazen as a means to relax and try make their lives more "efficient". When I have tried to discuss Buddhism with them they think I am insane.

On the other hand, the Nyingma tradition teacher travels a lot and is not always with his Sangha. This is problematic for me, as I have to travel a long distance to see him in the first place. The Sangha itself is composed of a few serious Buddhists, and mostly the aforementioned new-age/Wicca- types, who also seem to embrace Buddhism to suit their needs. What I am saying is that neither Sangha does what it is supposed to: offer other Buddhists a chance to meet up and discuss Dharma.

I did not mean my future school must conform to everything I listed, the whole purpose of this thread is simply to ask for directions. How could anyone suggest any school to me if they don't know anything at all about me or my preferences?
philji wrote:Ambrosius80.. There is also a kagyu centre Palpung Changchub Dargye Ling which has small centres or groups in Helsinki and Oulu. They are connected to Sherabling, a large monastery in India. Lama Rabsang visits. A few times a year.
Alternatively, try an online course such as Tara Triple Excellence on Dharma sun website, which may suit you. Traditional and very thorough.. You can sample it for free.
Thank you for the info, the Finnish forums do not mention those groups at all. I have to check them out. And thanks for the link also, it looks promising.
"What we have now is the best. He who can never be satisfied is a poor man, no matter how much he owns.

What you have results from karmic causes that you created, and what you'll gain hinges on karmic causes that you're creating."
-Master Sheng Yen
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Which school of Buddhism should I choose for myself?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »


I agree with your first sentence. I have gone to both places regularly for four months now, even though I live approximately four hours away from the capital so it is not easy for me to visit either Sangha. I can put up with people who make me feel uncomfortable. What I cannot put up are people who do not study Dharma at all, ridicule core Buddhist teachings like reincarnation or mix and match new age spiritualism with Buddhism. Most of the people in the zen center use zazen as a means to relax and try make their lives more "efficient". When I have tried to discuss Buddhism with them they think I am insane.
Well, get used to it...this describes a large portion of people who will show up at a lot of Buddhist Sangha. I don't mean to be flip, but seriously you are just describing where western Buddhism is at right now in many Sangha I think. The two approaches are to leave if it's too much for you, or severely interrupts practice. or to stay and see what shakes out. I've found that even "traditional" centers have plenty of people with these kinds of notions..it's a broad cultural trend, and the fact that people who show up at a given place often have little or no actual Dharma education. Even in places with lots of serious practitioners, plenty of people who walk through the door will at least start out in this category. IMO it's good to have as much empathy for them as you can, while sticking to your guns. IME the vast majority of practitioners (and this most definitely includes non-=westerners too) balk at actual discussions of doctrine, reading sutra, etc...people who want substantive Dharma education have been a minority in every group i've seen personally.


On the other hand, the Nyingma tradition teacher travels a lot and is not always with his Sangha. This is problematic for me, as I have to travel a long distance to see him in the first place. The Sangha itself is composed of a few serious Buddhists, and mostly the aforementioned new-age/Wicca- types, who also seem to embrace Buddhism to suit their needs. What I am saying is that neither Sangha does what it is supposed to: offer other Buddhists a chance to meet up and discuss Dharma.
You just described every "open to the public" type Sangha i've personally seen...the big difference is whether or not the de facto leadership/teachers handle these people well or not. Does it not have groups of "serious practitioners" that meet for study etc.? The skillful teachers i've seen are very good at presenting Dharma matter-of-factly, and challenging these sorts of perceptions. In addition the centers that i've seen that are well run have a sort of 'two track" system with stuff that is geared towards neophytes/non-Buddhists and stuff that is for people who have taken refuge and are more dedicated on some level. Does this happen at the center? If so, there's not much you can fault them for.

I did not mean my future school must conform to everything I listed, the whole purpose of this thread is simply to ask for directions. How could anyone suggest any school to me if they don't know anything at all about me or my preferences?
No, I get it, trust me. I moved around for a while before finding a home, in one case it was due to the other practitioners and not being on the same wavelength with them. I spent years not practicing with anyone for these exact reasons, that's why i'm trying to offer a bit of a counterpoint. I'm just trying to say, those types of people will be at nearly any public Sangha (at least IME) because that is the demographic that is often attracted to Buddhism initially...and more specifically, people who are into "new age" gravitate towards Vajrayana. Again the question is just whether or not the place has well-organized enough programs that those people have the opportunity to learn Dharma, or decide it's not for them. If they are actually openly putting down Dharmic concepts while continuing to go there, and steer the direction of the placve.. IMO that is strange, and I would not go there.

If, on the other hand you are making your decision more based on their ignorance than on what the center does organizationally, you might be missing out. If there are real teachers, and a core group of senior practitioners whose knowledge you can draw on, IMO that is actually a good find, even if the rest of the place is a revolving door of new-age folks. If not, then yeah, look for somewhere else.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
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Ambrosius80
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Re: Which school of Buddhism should I choose for myself?

Post by Ambrosius80 »

Thanks for your answer.

Well, it is very unfortunate indeed if that is the norm in most Dharma centers. The Nyingma center is pretty much in the hands of the new-age group, as the Rinpoche is there only a few days every second month or so. In the meantime, mostly it's Gomde-meditation, Tsog and Ngöndro. What makes these practices weird in the center is that for example when performing Tsog, where one should offer things out of free will and kindness, the Sangha members insist that it is "sacrificing" and make the whole process very melodramatic. No one gives these offerings out of loving-kindness.

The zen monk in the other center is very dedicated and is usually present. Despite the rather lackluster Sangha, I enjoy spending time there more than in the Nyingma center. On the other hand, I would like for my practice to include other things than zazen as well.
"What we have now is the best. He who can never be satisfied is a poor man, no matter how much he owns.

What you have results from karmic causes that you created, and what you'll gain hinges on karmic causes that you're creating."
-Master Sheng Yen
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Which school of Buddhism should I choose for myself?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Geez, that is pretty bad. Isn't someone knowledgeable in charge when Rinpoche isn't there?
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
plwk
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Re: Which school of Buddhism should I choose for myself?

Post by plwk »

Ever thought about getting oneself grounded and stabilised in one first before exploring other streams, practically speaking versus an idealistic one? For instance, in your own list, what's the more practical ones that you can work with at the moment versus the ones which are unattainable or are much more viable later?

I know it sounds 'boring' but rather than ending up with the frustration of many in the past who have invested years and much resources being a 'jack of all trades and master of none' syndrome or what some describe it as a 'monkey mind' and eventually dropping out of Buddha Dharma as some have done, the Soto guys sounds more 'promising' as per your own review, why not give it a shot first, unless you have the means to travel to other parts of Finland to explore more possibilities?

Surely, you can explore with the Roshi for more extensive review on what other Soto practices are there other than zazen being their root practice? You can even check out the Zen forum here and on ZFI for deeper analysis of them?

At the end of the day, it's your call and life... hope you find what's workable and befitting...
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Re: Which school of Buddhism should I choose for myself?

Post by sattva »

Personally, I have found that you often become involved with whatever path or teacher you have an affinity with and that doesn't mean it will all go smoothly. Sometimes, it is challenging! Have you tried this site to find more options. http://www.buddhanet.info/wbd/country.php?country_id=61 I would look at each of their webpages and slowly give them a try. Sometimes, places have affiliates or sitting groups away from the big cities, such as Helsinki. It is better to go some place that is "right" for you once in 5 years, than to go every week to a place that is unsuitable. If you meet someone and get the feeling, strong and deep, this is the teacher for me, listen to that voice! It has served me well. Good luck!
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Re: Which school of Buddhism should I choose for myself?

Post by Sherlock »

Buddhanet includes NKT centres, which should be avoided.
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Re: Which school of Buddhism should I choose for myself?

Post by Ayu »

Sherlock wrote:Buddhanet includes NKT centres, which should be avoided.
Thanks!!!
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Ambrosius80
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Re: Which school of Buddhism should I choose for myself?

Post by Ambrosius80 »

Johnny Dangerous wrote:Geez, that is pretty bad. Isn't someone knowledgeable in charge when Rinpoche isn't there?
Usually no. That's why I like the other center better, at least it always has someone qualified in charge. The monk has actually chosen two laymen to instruct the Sangha when he is not present. Both of them are very qualified and experienced, but the Sangha itself consists almost completely of non-Buddhists.
"What we have now is the best. He who can never be satisfied is a poor man, no matter how much he owns.

What you have results from karmic causes that you created, and what you'll gain hinges on karmic causes that you're creating."
-Master Sheng Yen
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Re: Which school of Buddhism should I choose for myself?

Post by tellyontellyon »

The Palpung group is definitely worth a visit: Lama Rabsang also teaches in Wales. He is a good teacher.

http://palpung.org.uk/the-appointment-l ... a-rabsang/
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Ambrosius80
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Re: Which school of Buddhism should I choose for myself?

Post by Ambrosius80 »

Thanks for all the replies!

I have found out that general Mahayana appeals to me the most. I like zazen and mantra meditation, as well as certain Pure Land practices like chanting amituofo. I have been attending to the Soto-zen center more often, and have spoken with the monk. He is very wise, and has encouraged me to apply practices other than zazen and sutra recitation as well, like using a mala to count mantras. He thinks that even though they are not traditionally associated with Soto-zen, if they help my practice then there is no harm in using them as well. I would classify myself as a half Soto, half Tendai or Ch'an practitioner because of that.
"What we have now is the best. He who can never be satisfied is a poor man, no matter how much he owns.

What you have results from karmic causes that you created, and what you'll gain hinges on karmic causes that you're creating."
-Master Sheng Yen
Saoshun
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Re: Which school of Buddhism should I choose for myself?

Post by Saoshun »

I suggest that the best school will be your own mind.
Motova
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Re: Which school of Buddhism should I choose for myself?

Post by Motova »

The teacher is the most important.

Find a realized teacher.

Also Tendai is Vajrayana. It just doesn't have Higher Yoga Tantra.

So I say Nyingma, but I am biased. :rolling:

http://www.vajracakra.com/viewtopic.php?f=88&t=2430
To become a rain man one must master the ten virtues and sciences.
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Re: Which school of Buddhism should I choose for myself?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Ambrosius80 wrote:Thanks for all the replies!

I have found out that general Mahayana appeals to me the most. I like zazen and mantra meditation, as well as certain Pure Land practices like chanting amituofo. I have been attending to the Soto-zen center more often, and have spoken with the monk. He is very wise, and has encouraged me to apply practices other than zazen and sutra recitation as well, like using a mala to count mantras. He thinks that even though they are not traditionally associated with Soto-zen, if they help my practice then there is no harm in using them as well. I would classify myself as a half Soto, half Tendai or Ch'an practitioner because of that.

I practiced Zen for a few years, though I now practice Vajrayana, at no point did I feel there was any real conflict between the two, and Zazen is..IME more than superficially similar to some meditations taught in Vajrayana. Not hat i'm advocating mixing traditions or anything per se...i'm just saying, you can practice Vajrayana and sit Zazen, and there is no conflict between those things...unless your teacher says otherwise of course. I enjoyed my time at a Soto Zendo...it is sort of merciless in what it expects of you, and that can be a good thing, I think.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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tomschwarz
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Re: Which school of Buddhism should I choose for myself?

Post by tomschwarz »

one thought for you dear old friend. ...someone who is hard for you to support, that is your buddha gym ))). meditate first to recharge your batteries then go to this person and open your heart and skillfull means to the real causes of their happiness on their own terms ))). then when you finish your workout return to your meditation practice, non dual heart open above yourself see the playing field. there is you with your perspective on life there is the other person with their actions and so on.. it all makes good sense yes? that is discernment or amitaba. enjoy it your ticket out of tension. ..
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA
Apraksin
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Re: Which school of Buddhism should I choose for myself?

Post by Apraksin »

When you mention the soto zen group in Helsinki, are you then referring to Helsinki zen center? I always thought they where connected to the swedish chapter of sanbo-Kyodan.

http://www.zazen.fi/index.html;jsessionid=ed1t7xkzqgq2
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