How does 18 early Buddhism School Related to Mahayana?

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usnisha
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How does 18 early Buddhism School Related to Mahayana?

Post by usnisha »

I don't quite understand, why today only 2 schools in Buddhism : Mahayana and Theravada , while in the early period there are 18 Schools of Buddhism.

How does 18 early Buddhism School Related to Mahayana?
Did Asokha's son who go to Sri Lanka belong to 18 Buddhist Schools or belong to a separated school (=, meaning that there are 18 Schools in india and 1 school in Sri Lanka ) ?
Fortyeightvows
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Re: How does 18 early Buddhism School Related to Mahayana?

Post by Fortyeightvows »

It's a bit much to get into here so hopefully someone else chimes in, but to understand all this you have to learn about the early Buddhist councils.

Mahayana is from the mahasanghikas. See second council.

The third council is said to have been started by Ashoka. The missionaries he sent to Sri Lanka were Theravadans.
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Re: How does 18 early Buddhism School Related to Mahayana?

Post by Kim O'Hara »

Uh ... it's complicated. :tongue:
No, really, it is complicated.
Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Buddhist_schools is as good a starting point as any that I know of.

Good luck! :hi:

:namaste:
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Re: How does 18 early Buddhism School Related to Mahayana?

Post by Fortyeightvows »

Also, in addition to the theravada school, two other of the early 18 schools still continue to exist as ordination lineage, so maybe you could say that they were absorbed into mahayana.
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Re: How does 18 early Buddhism School Related to Mahayana?

Post by Wayfarer »

'Mahayana' is not a school of Buddhism - there are many different 'schools' within Mahayana. Theravada (= Way of the Elders) is much more like a single school. The history and ancestory of the Buddhist lineages is a very complex topic which is made very difficult by the fact that many of the early schools left very few traces of their existence.

There is information on the question, but it takes research and reading to get to it. In terms of popular books which give an outline, I would recommend Buddhism: Its Essence and Development by Conze which is a standard text.
'Only practice with no gaining idea' ~ Suzuki Roshi
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Re: How does 18 early Buddhism School Related to Mahayana?

Post by Seishin »

According to professor Charles Willemen, there really isn't such a thing as Mahayana. All the early schools of Buddhism were borrowing & competing with one another. This is why the schools in what we now call "Mahayana" can look so different to each other.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mO2qsxmJCBA

Also a good article debunks the "tree" concept of schools (schools branching out from a single source) http://www.patheos.com/blogs/americanbu ... dhism.html

In gassho
Malcolm
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Re: How does 18 early Buddhism School Related to Mahayana?

Post by Malcolm »

Wayfarer wrote:'Mahayana' is not a school of Buddhism - there are many different 'schools' within Mahayana. Theravada (= Way of the Elders) is much more like a single school. The history and ancestory of the Buddhist lineages is a very complex topic which is made very difficult by the fact that many of the early schools left very few traces of their existence.

There is information on the question, but it takes research and reading to get to it. In terms of popular books which give an outline, I would recommend Buddhism: Its Essence and Development by Conze which is a standard text.
Mahāyāna schools in India are Madhyamaka and Yogacara, and arguable, Tathagatagarbha.
Simon E.
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Re: How does 18 early Buddhism School Related to Mahayana?

Post by Simon E. »

Wayfarer wrote:'Mahayana' is not a school of Buddhism - there are many different 'schools' within Mahayana. Theravada (= Way of the Elders) is much more like a single school. The history and ancestory of the Buddhist lineages is a very complex topic which is made very difficult by the fact that many of the early schools left very few traces of their existence.

There is information on the question, but it takes research and reading to get to it. In terms of popular books which give an outline, I would recommend Buddhism: Its Essence and Development by Conze which is a standard text.

The Theravada in its current form is far from being a single school.
And I am not just talking about the politics...
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
usnisha
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Re: How does 18 early Buddhism School Related to Mahayana?

Post by usnisha »

Fortyeightvows wrote:It's a bit much to get into here so hopefully someone else chimes in, but to understand all this you have to learn about the early Buddhist councils.

Mahayana is from the mahasanghikas. See second council.

The third council is said to have been started by Ashoka. The missionaries he sent to Sri Lanka were Theravadans.
From Theravada source, they will tell us that Mahayana is from Mahasanghika,
But we cannot simply say that Mahayana is from the Mahasanghikas , coz the Chinese Mahayana's vinaya is from Dharmaguptaka, a branch of Sthaviras , while Tibetan Mahayana's vinaya is from Mula sarvastivada, also a branch of Sthaviras.
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Re: How does 18 early Buddhism School Related to Mahayana?

Post by Fortyeightvows »

Ya, that's what I was trying to by absorbed.
Like O'Hara said, it's complicated.
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Re: How does 18 early Buddhism School Related to Mahayana?

Post by Aemilius »

Fortyeightvows wrote:Also, in addition to the theravada school, two other of the early 18 schools still continue to exist as ordination lineage, so maybe you could say that they were absorbed into mahayana.
At the time of Vasubandhu, 4th century CE, there was no school with the name "theravada".
Vasubandhu mentions many buddhist schools in his works, and he knew srilankan monks too,
but they are called srilankan monks, or tamraparniyas, which is an other name for people of Srilanka.
There was/is also a mahayana ordination lineage, or several of them.

There are two or three very different lists of what the 18 or 20 schools really are,
(according to History of Buddhism in India from Shakyamuni to Early Mahayana, H. Akira & P. Groner).

Lamotte mentions even more traditions concerning the 18 or 20 schools, in his History of Indian Buddhism, from page 517 onwards:
http://www.ahandfulofleaves.org/documen ... amotte.pdf
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They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
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Re: How does 18 early Buddhism School Related to Mahayana?

Post by Wayfarer »

Malcolm wrote: Mahāyāna schools in India are Madhyamaka and Yogacara, and arguable, Tathagatagarbha.
That's true but there are many more schools in China and Japan that continued to develop after Buddhism left India. Virtually all Chinese Buddhism was Mahayana, and whilst I am certainly no scholar of the subject, as I understand it there were numerous schools. Same in Japan. Others here would know more details but there were certainly many schools, weren't there?
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Re: How does 18 early Buddhism School Related to Mahayana?

Post by Wayfarer »

Simon E. wrote:The Theravada in its current form is far from being a single school.
I was of the understanding that the Theravada in Sri Lanka, Thailand and Myanmar all observed the same canon, the Tipitaka, and don't recognize the Mahayana sutras.

From my recollection, the Chinese pilgrims who came to India to get Buddhist scriptures observed that, at the time, there were Mahayana monastics living in the same monastries as the traditionalists (then called the Sthaviravadins, among other things.) They all observed the same Vinaya, but the Mahayana had additional commentaries and teachings which the traditionalists didn't recognize. Furthermore the traditionalist schools don't recognize ideas such as the 'second and third turnings'. Many of the Mahayana schools are based on a predominant sutra, like for example the Lotus Sutra or the Diamond Sutra. But again, there were also many texts held in common. But even in those times (which was third-fourth century C.E.) the differentiation of the Mahayana was not hard to observe, according to the records of the Chinese pilgrims.
'Only practice with no gaining idea' ~ Suzuki Roshi
usnisha
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Re: How does 18 early Buddhism School Related to Mahayana?

Post by usnisha »

I read about King Kanishka,
There was a Buddhist Council in Kashmir, convened by Kanishka, in Kashmir, with a purpose to unify all Buddhist Schools in India (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Buddhist_council). Buddhist in Sri Lanka (Theravada) didn't attend this council, probably due to the distance from Sri Lanka to Kashmir.

According to Taranatha (Buddhist historican) , After the council, Tripitaka was written and 8 viharas was built in Kashmir.

Probably Some schools are still maintain different teaching, but there are some "Unified" school emerged (8 viharas in Kashmir), and from those "unified" school, evolved into "Mahayana" School. In fact that Nalanda was a "unified" school with many scholars from different schools were staying there. I don't have a clue How the 8 viharas in Kashmir and Nalanda Vihara are related.
Last edited by usnisha on Fri Mar 13, 2015 6:57 am, edited 2 times in total.
usnisha
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Re: How does 18 early Buddhism School Related to Mahayana?

Post by usnisha »

Simon E. wrote:
Wayfarer wrote:'Mahayana' is not a school of Buddhism - there are many different 'schools' within Mahayana. Theravada (= Way of the Elders) is much more like a single school. The history and ancestory of the Buddhist lineages is a very complex topic which is made very difficult by the fact that many of the early schools left very few traces of their existence.

There is information on the question, but it takes research and reading to get to it. In terms of popular books which give an outline, I would recommend Buddhism: Its Essence and Development by Conze which is a standard text.

The Theravada in its current form is far from being a single school.
And I am not just talking about the politics...
I guess that theravada is originated from Mahavihara School in Sri Lanka. In Sri Lanka, Buddhism was split into 3 schools: Abhayagiri, Jetavana, and Mahavihara. And somehow Mahavihara school wins the Srilanka King's heart and ask the King to close the other 2 schools. And Today, all Theravadas are originated from Sri Lanka. From these facts, we can deduct that Theravada is from single school: Mahavihara
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Re: How does 18 early Buddhism School Related to Mahayana?

Post by usnisha »

Malcolm wrote:
Wayfarer wrote:'Mahayana' is not a school of Buddhism - there are many different 'schools' within Mahayana. Theravada (= Way of the Elders) is much more like a single school. The history and ancestory of the Buddhist lineages is a very complex topic which is made very difficult by the fact that many of the early schools left very few traces of their existence.

There is information on the question, but it takes research and reading to get to it. In terms of popular books which give an outline, I would recommend Buddhism: Its Essence and Development by Conze which is a standard text.
Mahāyāna schools in India are Madhyamaka and Yogacara, and arguable, Tathagatagarbha.
if Yogacara is originated from Sarvastivada (Asanga and Vasubandhu are from Sarvastivada ), From which school Madyamaka is originated?
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Re: How does 18 early Buddhism School Related to Mahayana?

Post by Aemilius »

usnisha wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Wayfarer wrote:'Mahayana' is not a school of Buddhism - there are many different 'schools' within Mahayana. Theravada (= Way of the Elders) is much more like a single school. The history and ancestory of the Buddhist lineages is a very complex topic which is made very difficult by the fact that many of the early schools left very few traces of their existence.

There is information on the question, but it takes research and reading to get to it. In terms of popular books which give an outline, I would recommend Buddhism: Its Essence and Development by Conze which is a standard text.
Mahāyāna schools in India are Madhyamaka and Yogacara, and arguable, Tathagatagarbha.
if Yogacara is originated from Sarvastivada (Asanga and Vasubandhu are from Sarvastivada ), From which school Madyamaka is originated?
From Vasubandhu in Abhidharmakosa it seems evident that Yogachara had existed long before the time of Asanga and Vasubandhu. Because Vasubandhu often calls Yogacharins the Ancient Masters. The meaning is that Yogachara was the ancient school when compared to the Vibhasa of Sarvastivada, which was then modern and that Vasubandhu was commenting on.

It is quite certain that the Three turnings of Dharma existed originally, because the Sravakayana had to include a strained explanation for it in their Canon, (i.e. that they all refer to the four noble truths!)
I think that Yogacara and Madhyamaka both originated from the Buddha himself.

Asanga was not a Sarvastivadin, some scholars think that he may have been a Mahishasaka in his youth. Vasubanhu converted to Mahayana due to the influence of Asanga.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: How does 18 early Buddhism School Related to Mahayana?

Post by Malcolm »

usnisha wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Wayfarer wrote:'Mahayana' is not a school of Buddhism - there are many different 'schools' within Mahayana. Theravada (= Way of the Elders) is much more like a single school. The history and ancestory of the Buddhist lineages is a very complex topic which is made very difficult by the fact that many of the early schools left very few traces of their existence.

There is information on the question, but it takes research and reading to get to it. In terms of popular books which give an outline, I would recommend Buddhism: Its Essence and Development by Conze which is a standard text.
Mahāyāna schools in India are Madhyamaka and Yogacara, and arguable, Tathagatagarbha.
if Yogacara is originated from Sarvastivada (Asanga and Vasubandhu are from Sarvastivada ), From which school Madyamaka is originated?
It has been argued that Nāgārjuna was a Sammitya, and this also makes some sense since the only version of karma that Nāgārjuna admits to liking is the theory of karma is that school.
usnisha
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Re: How does 18 early Buddhism School Related to Mahayana?

Post by usnisha »

Aemilius wrote:
usnisha wrote:

if Yogacara is originated from Sarvastivada (Asanga and Vasubandhu are from Sarvastivada ), From which school Madyamaka is originated?
From Vasubandhu in Abhidharmakosa it seems evident that Yogachara had existed long before the time of Asanga and Vasubandhu. Because Vasubandhu often calls Yogacharins the Ancient Masters. The meaning is that Yogachara was the ancient school when compared to the Vibhasa of Sarvastivada, which was then modern and that Vasubandhu was commenting on.

It is quite certain that the Three turnings of Dharma existed originally, because the Sravakayana had to include a strained explanation for it in their Canon, (i.e. that they all refer to the four noble truths!)
I think that Yogacara and Madhyamaka both originated from the Buddha himself.

Asanga was not a Sarvastivadin, some scholars think that he may have been a Mahishasaka in his youth. Vasubanhu converted to Mahayana due to the influence of Asanga.
I am quite confused now, Asanga the one who popularize yogacara isn't it ? how is he related to Mahisasaka?

if it is originated from Buddha himself, there should be a trace either from Mahasanghika or Staviras, or maybe from Licchavi Vimalakirti ( Vimalakirti is not a bhiksu, but a Highly realized being) or other Boddhisattvas that manifest in human being during the Buddha's lifetime.

and more Interesting if yogacara is originated from ancient time, is it related to Master Patanjali a non-Buddhist and theosophy follower? Patanjali is the one who popularize yoga (= name is similiar ), and from my understanding, yoga is a kind of philosophy in india.
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Re: How does 18 early Buddhism School Related to Mahayana?

Post by Malcolm »

usnisha wrote:
Aemilius wrote:
usnisha wrote:

if Yogacara is originated from Sarvastivada (Asanga and Vasubandhu are from Sarvastivada ), From which school Madyamaka is originated?
From Vasubandhu in Abhidharmakosa it seems evident that Yogachara had existed long before the time of Asanga and Vasubandhu. Because Vasubandhu often calls Yogacharins the Ancient Masters. The meaning is that Yogachara was the ancient school when compared to the Vibhasa of Sarvastivada, which was then modern and that Vasubandhu was commenting on.

It is quite certain that the Three turnings of Dharma existed originally, because the Sravakayana had to include a strained explanation for it in their Canon, (i.e. that they all refer to the four noble truths!)
I think that Yogacara and Madhyamaka both originated from the Buddha himself.

Asanga was not a Sarvastivadin, some scholars think that he may have been a Mahishasaka in his youth. Vasubanhu converted to Mahayana due to the influence of Asanga.
I am quite confused now, Asanga the one who popularize yogacara isn't it ? how is he related to Mahisasaka?

if it is originated from Buddha himself, there should be a trace either from Mahasanghika or Staviras, or maybe from Licchavi Vimalakirti ( Vimalakirti is not a bhiksu, but a Highly realized being) or other Boddhisattvas that manifest in human being during the Buddha's lifetime.

and more Interesting if yogacara is originated from ancient time, is it related to Master Patanjali a non-Buddhist and theosophy follower? Patanjali is the one who popularize yoga (= name is similiar ), and from my understanding, yoga is a kind of philosophy in india.
Personally, I see a lot of influence from Samkhya in Yogacara theory.
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