Question about rebirth, space, and time

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Kaccāni
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Re: Question about rebirth, space, and time

Post by Kaccāni »

rachmiel wrote:
Kaccāni wrote:There is no between death and rebirth, particularly not time and space, as time and space only exist between rebirth and death.
What about bardo:

A state of existence between death and rebirth, varying in length according to a person's conduct in life and manner of, or age at, death.

?
If bardo is a state of consciousness, then apparently consciousness is still arising, when it is in bardo state, not "between death and rebirth".
Bardo is a state that is debatable, not all schools will agree that it exists. From a shravaka perspective, it is pointless, a later invention. Nevertheless, it does not make any difference with regard to the problem.

You're thinking of rebirth of a "physical body", when the sperm meets the egg or when "the baby is delivered". That's neither the rebirth of consciousness nor the samsaric rebirth that has been adressed earlier. The only thing that appears to be is, that a notion of a body must be there, if you want as a secondary means (following dzogchen), or as a necessary precondition (following Theravada), for consciousness to express. You may say that when sperm, egg and consciousness meet, that it then will regain the possibility to express itself, and conventionally call that rebirth too. But what's the point in that? If counsciousness is there, it is there, if it is not, then "it is not". Where is consciousness in deep sleep? Nowhere.

The problem here appears to be, that it is difficult to imagine "nothing". The same question arises in science when people start to ask "what was before the big bang"?, not realizing, that if in that theory the big bang unfolds space time, there is no "before". You may only ask "why" did it happen. Why does consciousness arise again. The quantum scientist says: Because there is probability. The Buddhist says: Because of karma. Rather think of how it works that a certain kind of consciousness arises and don't be so obsessed with bodies :)

Best wishes
Kc
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Rick
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Re: Question about rebirth, space, and time

Post by Rick »

So what is reborn? What aspects of the emergent process named Kaccani will be present in a rebirth? How do these aspects manage to persist beyond brain/body death? What migration route do they take?
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Kaccāni
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Re: Question about rebirth, space, and time

Post by Kaccāni »

rachmiel wrote:So what is reborn?
Consciousness.
What aspects of the emergent process named Kaccani will be present in a rebirth?
That depends on Karma.
How do these aspects manage to persist beyond brain/body death? What migration route do they take?
Karma.

Best wishes
Kc
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BrianG
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Re: Question about rebirth, space, and time

Post by BrianG »

rachmiel wrote:So what is reborn? What aspects of the emergent process named Kaccani will be present in a rebirth? How do these aspects manage to persist beyond brain/body death? What migration route do they take?
There's no "it" that is reborn. What causes rebirth is clinging to existence. From the point of view of Yogacara, alaya-vijnana "persists" from this life to the next. The mind is invisible, and what is invisible can not disappear, therefore the mind can not be destroyed. So there is nothing to persist, and nothing that is destroyed.

Another way of looking at it - How do you survive a dream? Your body in the dream is destroyed, yet you still wake up the next day. An external "physical" environment, is not a prerequisite of experience.

Upon death, after the elements dissolve, you "go" to a bardo realm, which is similar to another dimension. Here's a few passages from "Ornament of Stainless Light"
On the basis of the Kalacakratantra
and its commentaries, when someone possessed of the six elements dies,
first the water element weakens the fire element, then the earth element
enters the water and disappears. The water element is subsequently dried
by the air element, which in turn absorbs into the space element and disappears.
At this time the knots of the central channel loosen, the flow of
wind in the right and left channels is halted, and wind enters and dissolves
into the central channel. When this happens, all conceptualization of transient objects ceases.
The natural clear-light mind becomes separated from
all limiting conceptual elaboration and takes on the aspect of a spacelike
emptiness. Within that emptiness various empty forms arise of their own
volition like images in a clairvoyant’s mirror. This is known as the
manifestation-of-death clear light.
This death clear light is experienced by ordinary beings but cannot be
ascertained by them. Therefore, once the bardo state of one of the six
kinds of existence has been formed, ordinary beings will move on powerlessly
to another existence.
Telepaths - I like to kill them
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Rick
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Re: Question about rebirth, space, and time

Post by Rick »

Hmmmmmmm ... must ponder. Thanks. :-)
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...
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