The Nature of Buddhahood

[pothigai]

What precisely is meant by 'karmic connection'?

Usually 'karmic connection' means some sort of shared karma. I've used it here to mean enough of a karmic similarity to become apparent. In the traditional '6 realms' schema we have enough shared karma to only see the animal realm. That's why we can see them and not the others.

If the karma of sentient beings is insufficient then a buddha could appear and not be seen. There's a story of Asanga carrying Maitreya on his back on some people could see his feet, while others could only see a dog.

Ah ok. So how do Buddhas benefit beings who do not have the karma to see them directly?

[Schrödinger’s Yidam]

Ah ok. So how do Buddhas benefit beings who do not have the karma to see them directly?

If they are physical, and you have the karma, you can see them directly and get teachings.

If they are etherial, and you have the karma, you can visualize them and get blessings.

If you do have the karma, then there is the analogy of "the hook of compassion and the ring of faith" by which you are uplifted--which surprisingly is true whether they are physical or not.

If you don't have the karma then you're out of luck, no matter what they do.

At least that's my understanding as of right now. How the Dharmakaya plays into all that gets really complicated.

[pothigai]

Ah ok. So how do Buddhas benefit beings who do not have the karma to see them directly?

If they are physical, and you have the karma, you can see them directly and get teachings.

If they are etherial, and you have the karma, you can visualize them and get blessings.

If you do have the karma, then there is the analogy of "the hook of compassion and the ring of faith" by which you are uplifted--which surprisingly is true whether they are physical or not.

If you don't have the karma then you're out of luck, no matter what they do.

At least that's my understanding as of right now. How the Dharmakaya plays into all that gets really complicated.

Ok cheers, that's exactly the sort of explanation I was looking for.

Any recommendations for any texts that describe this sort of stuff in detail?

[seeker242]

If there are already countless Buddhas, then why should people pursue the Bodhisattva path?

Because you, your family, your friends, perhaps strangers if you're compassionate, are suffering and you want to help them. You want to stop suffering yourself and you want them to stop suffering too. The one thing a Buddha can't do is make you stop creating suffering. A Buddha can teach you how, but have to do that yourself. He can't do it for you. A person pursues the Bodhisattva path because they have compassion for suffering and they want to do something about it.

I'm aware of the motivation for people pursuing the Bodhisattva path. What I want to know is something more like:

'Why, if there are already countless Buddhas, does it make a difference if there are any more of them?'

I don't think the reason changes because of that. If a person who has Bodhisattva compassion sees suffering, they just want to help regardless of how many Buddhas there are and regardless of who else can help or not. Even if it won't make any difference, they still want to help.

If a Buddha is capable of manifesting countless forms in order to benefit sentient beings, then it seems that there would be no need for more Buddhas, as any assistance that a Buddha could provide would have already been provided.

I don't think something like that is considered by the Bodhisattva. There are still suffering beings all over the place and it's obvious they still need hep because it's obvious they are still suffering. So the natural response is just to want to help them regardless of anything else.

[Astus]

Turning buddhas into gods creates a large number of theological problems that are not particularly addressed in any meaningful manner. That is because while on the surface people pray to Guanyin for health, wealth, good weather and such, for those who look for a deeper meaning she becomes the heroine of compassion and wisdom to emulate, and ultimately a manifestation of the nature of mind.

"the Tathagata isn't concerned with whether all the cosmos or half of it or a third of it will be led to release by means of that [Dhamma]. But he does know this: 'All those who have been led, are being led, or will be led [to release] from the cosmos have done so, are doing so, or will do so after having abandoned the five hindrances — those defilements of awareness that weaken discernment — having well-established their minds in the four frames of reference, and having developed, as they have come to be, the seven factors for Awakening."
(AN 10.95)

"There is a great castle, which has only one gate. Many people come and go, and pass through it, without hindrance. And no one destroys it and takes it away. That is how matters stand."
(Nirvana Sutra, ch 36, tr Yamamoto)

Some works on buddhahood:

The Buddha and Omniscience
On Being Buddha
Buddhahood Embodied
The Concept of the Buddha

[Schrödinger’s Yidam]

Turning buddhas into gods creates a large number of theological problems that are not particularly addressed in any meaningful manner.

Lol, it creates problems for us because anything that even remotely reminds us of Christianity sends us into hysterics. But for a pre-industrialized society like old Tibet, which was basically an intact 12th century society, it was a given. If you go back and look at Europe in the 12th century you won't find a problem with theism either.

I can't source it but ChNN has been quoted here at DW at saying, "We have lots of gods. We just don't have one central omnipotent God." (quotation approximate from memory and unsourced)

[Astus]

it creates problems for us because anything that even remotely reminds us of Christianity sends us into hysterics.

I meant theological/philosophical problems, not general materialist antipathy towards spiritual entities. Buddhism is polytheist, but gods are not the saviours of humanity, nor do they really care about them. Also, they are neither omnipotent nor omniscient. A pantheon of powerful benevolent deities who are supposed to help all beings is fine as long as one does not question the various inconsistencies. Since even buddhas are unable to make the slightest change in beings' karma, it's all up to each individual to correct their errors and attain liberation.

[Schrödinger’s Yidam]

Buddhism is polytheist...

OK, good start.

...but gods are not the saviours of humanity, nor do they really care about them.

That depends on what you mean by "savior". Do you think they have not soteriological function? Plus you've just dismissed a whole lot of literature about the compassion of Chenrezig, etc.

Also, they are neither omnipotent nor omniscient.

Omnipotent? No. No form of Buddhism has that to the best of my knowledge.

But I don't have a problem with the idea of an omniscient Sambkogakaya or Dharmakaya. Do you?

A pantheon of powerful benevolent deities who are supposed to help all beings is fine as long as one does not question the various inconsistencies...

Such as....?

Since even buddhas are unable to make the slightest change in beings' karma...

If so, then why are all my teachers telling me to do 111,111 Vajrasattva mantras?

...it's all up to each individual to correct their errors and attain liberation.

Buddhas cannot act unilaterally. And their intent is not to try to make samsara acceptable, which Sakyamuni taught is impossible anyways. Their intention and efficacy is to transform the sentient being into an enlightened being. The sentient being must choose to practice. In the Vajrayana deity practice it is a joint effort, there is a lot more "oomph" to it. Think of it like the difference between an acoustic guitar and an electric guitar. The amplification is coming from somewhere other than the willpower of the guitarist.

[kirtu]

It's easy to view the situation like a beautiful park. It's full of generous people ready to give money, food, help, counsel, and so on to anyone who needs it. Throngs of the poor and starving stand outside. But the gate is locked, a key costs a million dollars in good karma, and no one inside either unlocks the gate or sends help out where it's needed.
If ignorance is the cause and the gate is actually wide open but no one realizes, then isn't it the duty of those in the park who have superior wisdom, capacity, and compassion to render aid precisely to those who cannot help themselves?

Everyone is already in the park. There is nothing other than the park. However within the park there are beings who are awake, infinite in number, and other beings, also infinite in number, who are sleeping and suffering different forms of nightmares. The awake beings are trying to wake up the sleeping beings. But karma is blocking or enabling both of these situations. The sleeping beings themselves are creating karma during their sleeping because they are choosing to do things in their sleeping ignorance that create karma. All around them though, awake beings are doing things like shaking them, soothing them, ringing bells, etc. All to wake the sleeping beings up. Beings with particular karmic affinities can in fact appear in the nightmares of the sleeping beings and demonstrate ways to guide the sleepers. The awake beings do this spontaneously.

Kirt

[明安 Myoan]

I like your response, Kirtu

This is just my understanding...

I think the distinction may be that Chenrezig and Amitabha are not purported to somehow remove beings' karma, thus violating cause and effect. Otherwise why is everyone still here in samsara?
Contrast this with other savior religions, where karma is not understood, and thus the appearance of acts or traits are taken as either completely intrinsic or extrinsic to an essential soul, which is in the purview of an external deity to act on and cancel out often by poorly described and poorly understood means.

Ignorance being a matter of view and realization, at the root of suffering in to the 12 links of dependent origination, then any blessings and salvation must be in these terms as well to be effective, to truly get at the root of the issue.
This is also very different from other religions, where dependent origination is not understood, so we pray for money or removal of our flaws, or wholesale liberation from unhappiness and bad circumstances.

So we have "teachings" and "purification": teachings to remove wrong view, purification to subvert self-identity with that which never had a self, often our defilements or "things we did" as beings enmeshed in identities.
This is very much within the realm of buddhas and bodhisattvas to act and provide blessings and teachings.
This is also consistent with the ultimate goal of Buddhism which is the liberation from suffering, understood to be fundamental ignorance. Not worldly happiness, and not better birth or better conditioned circumstances.

Even in Pure Land Buddhism, Amitabha does not expiate negative karma, as far as I understand.
Rather, practice enables birth where the fruits of our past karma do not impede further cultivation or lead to endless rebirth in samsara, and we are not in an environment where more negative karma could be amassed.
The difference is like an addict struggling to be free among fellow users and bad influences, or surrounded by loving support in the best facilities.

Just some thoughts I guess, maybe completely tangential

[Schrödinger’s Yidam]

I think the distinction may be that Chenrezig and Amitabha are not purported to somehow remove beings' karma, thus violating cause and effect. Otherwise why is everyone still here in samsara?

Chenrezig and Amitabha are not omnipotent and cannot act unilaterally. The analogy is "the hook of compassion and the ring of faith". Without the ring of faith there is nothing for the hook of compassion to latch onto.

[pothigai]

it creates problems for us because anything that even remotely reminds us of Christianity sends us into hysterics.

I meant theological/philosophical problems, not general materialist antipathy towards spiritual entities. Buddhism is polytheist, but gods are not the saviours of humanity, nor do they really care about them. Also, they are neither omnipotent nor omniscient. A pantheon of powerful benevolent deities who are supposed to help all beings is fine as long as one does not question the various inconsistencies. Since even buddhas are unable to make the slightest change in beings' karma, it's all up to each individual to correct their errors and attain liberation.

How do they benefit beings then?

[明安 Myoan]

How do they benefit beings then?

In my experience, through teachings and activities relevant to the root of suffering in our most intimate experience.
Being Buddhist will not lead to worldly blessings, anything wrapped up in gain and loss that engenders further suffering.

Pray to Amitabha for health, then a cold disproves Amitabha.
Pray to Amitabha for insight into how to help others, to illuminate where we are most stuck, to dispel doubts, to grow forbearance... then we may see something worth seeing.

To be frank, this overly rational and analytical skeptic would not be a Pure Land Buddhist merely for some empty promises.

[Schrödinger’s Yidam]

Pray to Amitabha for health, then a cold disproves Amitabha.
Pray to Amitabha for insight into how to help others, to illuminate where we are most stuck, to dispel doubts, to grow forbearance... then we may see something worth seeing.

To be frank, this overly rational and analytical skeptic would not be a Pure Land Buddhist merely for some empty promises.

The trick here is to develop unconditional faith and trust without either expectation or fear. That's not an easy task.

[Rakz]

it creates problems for us because anything that even remotely reminds us of Christianity sends us into hysterics.

I meant theological/philosophical problems, not general materialist antipathy towards spiritual entities. Buddhism is polytheist, but gods are not the saviours of humanity, nor do they really care about them. Also, they are neither omnipotent nor omniscient. A pantheon of powerful benevolent deities who are supposed to help all beings is fine as long as one does not question the various inconsistencies. Since even buddhas are unable to make the slightest change in beings' karma, it's all up to each individual to correct their errors and attain liberation.

How do they benefit beings then?

Yeah only way they benefit is turning the wheel of Dharma which Shakyamuni has already done. If Buddhas are unable to help anyone other than do that then why not just follow the early teachings and go for Arhathood instead?

[Astus]

That depends on what you mean by "savior". Do you think they have not soteriological function? Plus you've just dismissed a whole lot of literature about the compassion of Chenrezig, etc.

Is there any sutra or even some school of Buddhism where they say that a buddha or a bodhisattva can actually put a being into nirvana? I have not yet to see one. Although when I write gods I mean gods, not buddhas. Chenrezig is not a god.

But I don't have a problem with the idea of an omniscient Sambkogakaya or Dharmakaya. Do you?

If omniscient is understood as literally knowing everything, then yes, there are problems with that. To begin with, it is in conflict with choice, i.e. the classic philosophical problem of fate/predetermination vs. free will. Also, MN 76 contains a number of objections against people claiming omniscience.

Such as....?

First and foremost, that there is no clear manifestation of superhuman beings interfering with humans. While innumerable sects and religions claim that it is their god/s doing this and that, none can put forth anything beyond unfounded claims.

If so, then why are all my teachers telling me to do 111,111 Vajrasattva mantras?

You do the practice, not Vajrasattva. And there is a nice term in Buddhism for that: skilful means.

Their intention and efficacy is to transform the sentient being into an enlightened being. The sentient being must choose to practice. In the Vajrayana deity practice it is a joint effort, there is a lot more "oomph" to it. Think of it like the difference between an acoustic guitar and an electric guitar. The amplification is coming from somewhere other than the willpower of the guitarist.

If buddhas cannot modify beings' minds they cannot make them enlightened or even bring closer to them directly. That does not mean there can be no interaction, it only excludes one's karma being in any way modified by external forces. So, Amitabha cannot put beings into Sukhavati, beings have to establish the required conditions in their minds in order to gain birth there. Same with other buddha-lands.

[Astus]

How do they benefit beings then?

In terms of liberation, gods (Indra, Brahma, etc.) are mostly useless. Nevertheless, just like one person may build a bridge that others use, it is not impossible for gods to be of some assistance. In a similar way, bodhisattvas and buddhas can provide help using numerous means. But in the end it's up to each and every person to develop the factors of enlightenment and attain bodhi.

On the other hand, if one understands that whatever one experiences depends on one's karma - mental conditioning - it becomes clear that even what appears the work of buddhas or maras are only one's own concepts. At the same time, because those are one's own concepts, they are the works of buddhas or maras.

[pothigai]

How do they benefit beings then?

In terms of liberation, gods (Indra, Brahma, etc.) are mostly useless. Nevertheless, just like one person may build a bridge that others use, it is not impossible for gods to be of some assistance. In a similar way, bodhisattvas and buddhas can provide help using numerous means. But in the end it's up to each and every person to develop the factors of enlightenment and attain bodhi.

On the other hand, if one understands that whatever one experiences depends on one's karma - mental conditioning - it becomes clear that even what appears the work of buddhas or maras are only one's own concepts. At the same time, because those are one's own concepts, they are the works of buddhas or maras.

I meant, how do Buddhas/Bodhisattvas benefit beings?

[Astus]

I meant, how do Buddhas/Bodhisattvas benefit beings?

It is through giving that bodhisattvas and buddhas benefit beings. There are three kinds of giving (dana paramita): material objects, reverence, Dharma. (The Perfection of Giving, Excerpt 3, p 5)

[Schrödinger’s Yidam]

If so, then why are all my teachers telling me to do 111,111 Vajrasattva mantras?

You do the practice, not Vajrasattva. And there is a nice term in Buddhism for that: skilful means.

I am doing the practice. Vajrasattva is doing the purifying. Otherwise I might as well be be visualizing Mickey Mouse and chanting M-I-C-K-E-Y-M-O-U-S-E, because there actually is no Vajrasattva doing the cleansing of my karma, right? Mickey too would be just as much "skillful means" as anything else, right?

In the puja the practitioner requests Vajrasattva to purify them. At the conclusion Vajrasattva assures them they are purified.

In the Vajrayana the deities have potency to alter the practitioner. When I said in elsewhere that after Madhyamaka comes faith that is what I was talking about. Obviously you know nothing about that. I suggest you find a good lama and start to practice Vajrayana. And don't ask a white guy, they screw it up. As a Tibetan lama.