How to eliminate self-cherishing?

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
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SeekerNo1000003
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How to eliminate self-cherishing?

Post by SeekerNo1000003 »

What is the criterion for eliminating self-cherishing?
Would just acknowledging that I do not know who I am eliminate self-cherishing?
Or is understanding of dependent arising the criterion?
dreambow
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Re: How to eliminate self-cherishing?

Post by dreambow »

For the elimination of self cherishing..... happiness and wisdom lie where where the 'I' is not.
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Astus
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Re: How to eliminate self-cherishing?

Post by Astus »

One must see things as they are, dependently originated without a single essence. Agnosticism or verbal repetition of "there is no self" are useless.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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seeker242
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Re: How to eliminate self-cherishing?

Post by seeker242 »

SeekerNo1000003 wrote: Would just acknowledging that I do not know who I am eliminate self-cherishing?
I don't think so because that is just the beginning, not the end. That acknowledgement just prompts one to go and find out the truth of all this stuff. And finding that out is what puts an end to cherishing.
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
Jeff H
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Re: How to eliminate self-cherishing?

Post by Jeff H »

By “person” we mean all sentient beings, including those who suffer in samsara, those who strive after Dharma, and those with realizations on the path. By “self” we may mean simply a person experiencing life or we may mean a truly existing entity experiencing life. The first referent exists, the second does not. That truly existing self is the object of negation in Dharma.

The business of pursuing Dharma is to realize that we naturally, innately, believe in that second meaning, the non-existent self. That belief becomes our self-grasping and we act upon it through self-cherishing attitudes and behaviors. That is our ignorance – grounding our lives upon something that does not exist inherently as it seems to.

Eliminating self-cherishing is the process of coming to internalize the fact that no such inherently existing self has ever existed. We don't make it go away, we just wake up to the fact that it could never have existed. It's more like a child who's terrified of monster under the bed growing up to realize there were never any monsters.
Where now is my mind engaged? - Shantideva
Jesse
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Re: How to eliminate self-cherishing?

Post by Jesse »

chop it off. :tongue:
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Thus shall ye think of all this fleeting world:
A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream;
A flash of lightning in a summer cloud,
A flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream.
SeekerNo1000003
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Re: How to eliminate self-cherishing?

Post by SeekerNo1000003 »

Okay, thank you for the replies.

How about this verse from Lama Chopa:
Please bless me to perceive that this chronic disease of cherishing myself
is the cause giving rise to my unsought suffering.
By blaming and begrudging** it may I destroy
the great demon of self grasping

**
Would "blaming and begrudging self cherishing be enough to destroy self-grasping? Is there something in between the lines that I'm not getting?
Would a true realization that self-cherishing is the cause of much suffering come with the understanding of self as dependent arising?
Or in other words...
In order to realize that self-cherishing is the cause of suffering is it necessary to develop a deep understanding of self as dependent arising? Can such
realization (that self-cherishing is the door to all sufferings) occur even if someone has not yet attained some significant understanding of self as dependent arising?
Or perhaps would "destroying" the great demon of self grasping involve an effort to understand dependent arising?
:namaste:
Jesse
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Re: How to eliminate self-cherishing?

Post by Jesse »

SeekerNo1000003 wrote:Okay, thank you for the replies.

How about this verse from Lama Chopa:
Please bless me to perceive that this chronic disease of cherishing myself
is the cause giving rise to my unsought suffering.
By blaming and begrudging** it may I destroy
the great demon of self grasping

**
Would "blaming and begrudging self cherishing be enough to destroy self-grasping? Is there something in between the lines that I'm not getting?
Would a true realization that self-cherishing is the cause of much suffering come with the understanding of self as dependent arising?
Or in other words...
In order to realize that self-cherishing is the cause of suffering is it necessary to develop a deep understanding of self as dependent arising? Can such
realization (that self-cherishing is the door to all sufferings) occur even if someone has not yet attained some significant understanding of self as dependent arising?
Or perhaps would "destroying" the great demon of self grasping involve an effort to understand dependent arising?
:namaste:
I think he means once you understand that self cherishing is the cause of all our suffering, "may I never lose sight of this truth", or something like that. Self cherishing is the cause of all delusion, so in the midst of our normal deluded state it's very difficult to see this.
Can such realization (that self-cherishing is the door to all sufferings) occur even if someone has not yet attained some significant understanding of self as dependent arising?
I'd say yes, but even if you do understand how the self is dependently originated, we tend to lose sight of it due to karma. It's really not a see it one time and your enlightened sort of deal imo, it's something you see vaguely, then a little better, then a little better, and even after you see it perfectly you still have to practice everyday to maintain the realization, and to strip away layers of karmic obscurations, etc.
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Thus shall ye think of all this fleeting world:
A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream;
A flash of lightning in a summer cloud,
A flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream.
Jinzang
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Re: How to eliminate self-cherishing?

Post by Jinzang »

You eliminate self cherishing the same way you eliminate any fault. First, by seeing that you are doing it. And second, by seeing the negative consequences of self-cherishing outweigh the positive consequences.
"It's as plain as the nose on your face!" Dottie Primrose
Brev
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Re: How to eliminate self-cherishing?

Post by Brev »

Exchanging self and other is very helpful. http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/ar ... tudes.html
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: How to eliminate self-cherishing?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Cherish others more than yourself.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
SeekerNo1000003
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Re: How to eliminate self-cherishing?

Post by SeekerNo1000003 »

Thank you dear friends for you replies :namaste:
I'll keep practicing!
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Mr. Robot
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Re: How to eliminate self-cherishing?

Post by Mr. Robot »

Eliminating self-cherishing, or even self-hate or any other self-directed emotion can be effected by the elimination of dualistic, ego-based thinking.

Meditating on the non-inherent existence of the self may be a good place to start
Herbie
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Re: How to eliminate self-cherishing?

Post by Herbie »

SeekerNo1000003 wrote:What is the criterion for eliminating self-cherishing?
Would just acknowledging that I do not know who I am eliminate self-cherishing?
Or is understanding of dependent arising the criterion?
What is considered to be "self-cherishing"? Can you give examples? The expression "self-cherishing" is too abstract for me because e.g. if you cherish others as you cherish yourself then what's the issue? Just asking to understand why one should want to eliminate it ...
Jeff H
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Re: How to eliminate self-cherishing?

Post by Jeff H »

SeekerNo1000003, I’m not sure I understand what you’re trying to get at. It seems like you’re asking whether there’s any way to overcome self-cherishing other than a deep realization of dependent arising. But maybe you're asking how to go about overcoming self-cherishing.

I think that working on our self-cherishing is a method practice and dependent arising is more of a wisdom practice (because it is the principal conventional means to arrive at emptiness). In the Sutrayana path, method and wisdom are worked on separately but in a complementary manner. If you attain the wisdom realizing emptiness you will naturally abandon self-cherishing because you will have abandoned self-grasping (the belief in an inherently existent self). But such practices as “exchanging self and other” or the “seven-point cause and effect” method are specific, step by step exercises intended to guide us through the process of overcoming self-cherishing.
Where now is my mind engaged? - Shantideva
SeekerNo1000003
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Re: How to eliminate self-cherishing?

Post by SeekerNo1000003 »

Jeff H wrote:SeekerNo1000003, I’m not sure I understand what you’re trying to get at. It seems like you’re asking whether there’s any way to overcome self-cherishing other than a deep realization of dependent arising. But maybe you're asking how to go about overcoming self-cherishing.

I think that working on our self-cherishing is a method practice and dependent arising is more of a wisdom practice (because it is the principal conventional means to arrive at emptiness). In the Sutrayana path, method and wisdom are worked on separately but in a complementary manner. If you attain the wisdom realizing emptiness you will naturally abandon self-cherishing because you will have abandoned self-grasping (the belief in an inherently existent self). But such practices as “exchanging self and other” or the “seven-point cause and effect” method are specific, step by step exercises intended to guide us through the process of overcoming self-cherishing.
Hi Jeff,
Thank you for the thorough answer. That's what I was hoping to learn.
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Mr. Robot
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Re: How to eliminate self-cherishing?

Post by Mr. Robot »

Jeff H (or anyone else who may be able to answer)

Where is a good place to learn of various specific meditation techniques such as the ones you mentioned above? This is something I've been wondering about for a while, and your reply above rekindled that curiosity.
Jeff H
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Re: How to eliminate self-cherishing?

Post by Jeff H »

I can recommend The Awakening Mind by Geshe Tashi Tsering: http://www.wisdompubs.org/book/awakening-mind. It is the basic text for the fourth module of his “Foundation of Buddhist Thought” course. Geshe Tashi teaches that course at Jamyang in London and it is also offered as a 2-year online course. The entire course is quite powerful.

I’ve attached a little study aid I made. I originally learned lam rim in a step-wise model which I have found very helpful. The twenty-one lam rim steps incorporate both the seven-step cause and effect method as well as the exchanging self and other method, which are normally taught as separate practices.
Attachments
Lamrim Flow and Bodhicitta Steps.pdf
(87.26 KiB) Downloaded 96 times
Where now is my mind engaged? - Shantideva
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Mr. Robot
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Re: How to eliminate self-cherishing?

Post by Mr. Robot »

Thank you. I took a look at the pdf, which gave some insight but opened up more questions than it answered...and that's a good thing! I will be looking into this further.
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