can one mind enter another?

[Astus]

It's not as rare as you think.

If it were only a matter of gaining the fourth level of absorption - something that's not exclusive to Buddhists - magical feats would be as common as marathon runners, or at least as world class athletes.

[Johnny Dangerous]

What would be called an exceptional level of emotional intelligence in western psych is pretty hard to separate from 'psychic ability', IMO they might actually one and the same. Knowing one's own mind makes it possible to know the minds of others. The scary thing is, there are both very saintly and very damaged people with the ability. The damaged ones would be viewed as people with high emotional intelligence, and little to no empathy. Extremely strong Empathy combined with extremely strong emotional intelligence *is* the ability to know the thoughts of others, on a number of levels, I think it might also be the place for the development of Mahakaruna. IMO it is not anything even particularly special, but an ability that exists in lots of people in varying degrees, affected i'm sure not only by action in this life but previous ones..

[Vasana]

J.D , I coined a term for that last year;

Telempathy.

If you sincerely incubate the empathetic intention to help someone you know (or anyone ) by being aware of any distress in them ,it can happen,albeit to varying degrees of subtlety.Of course sometimes this may be mixed with your own subjective projections too,or be nothing other than projection. Hence the need for stable Samadhi with clear lucidity.

Dreamtime diagnosis or incubation is originally a shamanic practice that emerged in multiple cultures but you hear many stories of it in Buddhism too.

Mind streams at night time would be a whole other kettle of fish wouldn't they? Considering the sense conciousness` have withdrawn into the alaya, various minds must occasionally slip into syncrony ,both in terms of the intervals between dreams/thoughts where the traces and projections are temporarily suspended?

We sink back in to the mirror simultaneously or individually and no longer is there a spatial-gap or impediment between two continnuums... If your mirror`s clear enough, I see no reason why that clarity could not also reflect the characteristics grasped by another mental continuum if they are of the same essential nature and share the same infinite potentiality for reflections. In the case of telepathy, i think it would be a case of the reflections of one mirror appearing clearly in another. The reflections appearing in the first mirror have not truly entered that mirror itself ,let alone entered the other. Hence why minds don't enter each other but can know one another, perhaps.

"Mirror facing mirror ,nowhere else!" -Ikkyu

[Astus]

What would be called an exceptional level of emotional intelligence in western psych is pretty hard to separate from 'psychic ability', IMO they might actually one and the same. Knowing one's own mind makes it possible to know the minds of others.

That's possible, and takes the whole mystical side away.

[Malcolm]

If that's so straightforward as you say, where are all the telepathic and miracle making yogis (besides all the stories)?

These days? Tibet and India.

[Malcolm]

It's not as rare as you think.

If it were only a matter of gaining the fourth level of absorption - something that's not exclusive to Buddhists - magical feats would be as common as marathon runners, or at least as world class athletes.

There are very few people who have attained even the first dhyāna, let alone the fourth, in this day and age.

Of course, since you don't know any real yogis, you have never encountered people who have these capacities.

[Astus]

These days? Tibet and India.

How come then that the world knows nothing about them? With all the parapsychologists, hermeticists, esoteric enthusiasts, New Age believers, media sensationalism, and the people who want to prove every one of them as frauds, it seems very unlikely that if there are people with genuine supernormal powers, they just remain unnoticed.

There are very few people who have attained even the first dhyāna, let alone the fourth, in this day and age.

There are also very few Nobel laureates and Olympic gold medalists.

[Malcolm]

These days? Tibet and India.

it seems very unlikely that if there are people with genuine supernormal powers, they just remain unnoticed.

Frankly, they prefer to remain unnoticed. And, imagine how annoying it would be to be able to "hear" all the chatter in other beings' minds. What a cacophony.

[Johnny Dangerous]

How come then that the world knows nothing about them? With all the parapsychologists, hermeticists, esoteric enthusiasts, New Age believers, media sensationalism, and the people who want to prove every one of them as frauds, it seems very unlikely that if there are people with genuine supernormal powers, they just remain unnoticed.

IDK, I often wonder if these kinds of abilities are really separable from the situations in which they are used like that. I have personally experienced stuff like "mind reading" from people who aren't even advanced practitioners, who claim no abilities, and weren't even trying to use them, I don't think. So my sneaking suspicion is that for a good chunk of people who have these abilities or qualities (personally I think quality might actually be a better description in some ways) don't really know how to do them at will, and in some cases maybe aren't even particularly aware of them..though for sure I'm open to the possibility that some very developed folks can use such things and know what they are doing.

[Astus]

Frankly, they prefer to remain unnoticed.

That sounds just like a good number of conspiracy theories do.

And, imagine how annoying it would be to be able to "hear" all the chatter in other beings' minds. What a cacophony.

If it is an ability someone has developed, then it can be controlled, and activates according to one's will.

[Grigoris]

There are very few people who have attained even the first dhyāna, let alone the fourth, in this day and age.

The first jhana is just "...rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought and evaluation." What is so rare about that?

[Astus]

So my sneaking suspicion is that for a good chunk of people who have these abilities or qualities (personally I think quality might actually be a better description in some ways) don't really know how to do them at will, and in some cases maybe aren't even particularly aware of them..though for sure I'm open to the possibility that some very developed folks can use such things and know what they are doing.

Everyone should have those abilities. In a way, it is part of social interaction, and regularly experienced among family members and close friends. And there are people who take this to the next level.

[AlexMcLeod]

What makes you think that someone of that level is a performing monkey for your entertainment?

[Astus]

Further clarification of my approach on the matter.

If powers are taken to be real magic, they actually remain only a matter of stories, good for entertainment and nothing more. But if they are understood as meditation/religious experiences, they regain their relevance and become something that people can relate to, that they can truly use for something, etc. And people do experience them, as many practitioner can testify.

[Malcolm]

Further clarification of my approach on the matter.

If powers are taken to be real magic, they actually remain only a matter of stories, good for entertainment and nothing more. But if they are understood as meditation/religious experiences, they regain their relevance and become something that people can relate to, that they can truly use for something, etc. And people do experience them, as many practitioner can testify.

Your approach to the subject is no different than any other scientific materialist.

What can you use clairvoyance for if it is not a real capacity of the human mind?

[Grigoris]

Further clarification of my approach on the matter.

If powers are taken to be real magic, they actually remain only a matter of stories, good for entertainment and nothing more. But if they are understood as meditation/religious experiences, they regain their relevance and become something that people can relate to, that they can truly use for something, etc. And people do experience them, as many practitioner can testify.

Astus has a point. If they are the outcome of meditational absorption then theoretically they are achievable by all meditation practitioners. Otherwise they are just mythological accounts with which to impress the credulous.

[Malcolm]

Further clarification of my approach on the matter.

If powers are taken to be real magic, they actually remain only a matter of stories, good for entertainment and nothing more. But if they are understood as meditation/religious experiences, they regain their relevance and become something that people can relate to, that they can truly use for something, etc. And people do experience them, as many practitioner can testify.

Astus has a point. If they are the outcome of meditational absorption then theoretically they are achievable by all meditation practitioners. Otherwise they are just mythological accounts with which to impress the credulous.

Yes, they are achievable by anyone with sufficient mastery of equipoise, from which they will naturally arise.

[Astus]

Your approach to the subject is no different than any other scientific materialist.

There is a history of testing claims of supernatural powers in Europe and the US. It is not the case that there is a lack of people who believe in magic, rather it's the lack of people who can perform in a controlled environment. There are monks who are scientifically tested for the benefits of meditation. But there are only old stories where monks and yogis display magical powers.

The materialist approach is to interpret the powers in a way that they should exist in a materially effective way, just like you seem to say. And that's why it is easily refuted as false by others with a similar materialistic approach.

What can you use clairvoyance for if it is not a real capacity of the human mind?

I don't recall the Buddha advising his disciples to use clairvoyance for anything.

[Malcolm]

I don't recall the Buddha advising his disciples to use clairvoyance for anything.

Bodhisattvas are supposed to cultivate the five abijñas to be of benefit to other sentient beings. For example, being able to know the minds of other sentient beings means that one will automatically know what kind of teaching for which they are suited, etc. Buddha gave much advice of this kind.

[Malcolm]

The materialist approach is to interpret the powers in a way that they should exist in a materially effective way, just like you seem to say. And that's why it is easily refuted as false by others with a similar materialistic approach.

We are talking about clairvoyance, manomāyakāyas and so on. What is material about that?